Carry Legality Question

[Shadehawk]

I have a question or two about the legality of me carrying a few items (concealed or open).

Collapseable Baton: 16" police grade steel baton
OC Chemical Spray: Police grade spray, not mace or pepper spray usually sold at sporting goods stores

An armed guard friend of mine told me that you need a special license to carry these items. I have a CFP and was curious what the law says about civilians carrying these items.
Also, if I indeed can carry these items, what could I expect from LEO's if I'm found with them?

[SAMI]

AFAIK, You can legally carry any of those items without a CCP in UT. I carry OC with a dash of tear gas, so that I have a number of options.

I used to carry an ASP when knockin doors with a white shirt and tag on in the hoods of Florida. It came in handy against big angry dogs.

[Paul]

I just realized, I don't think I know the answer to this question. (at least I'm not confident in my answer)

First blush though I would say you CAN'T carry the baton concealed without a CFP because it is a weapon.
Not sure what I think about the OC spray.

With a permit you would be fine for either.

Hopefully someone that knows more than me (that shouldn't be hard) will chime in.

[SAMI]

I find it shocking that you are a CWP Instructor, and don't know an answer for at the very least, the OC spray.

Anyone can absolutely carry OC. I'm not 100% on an ASP and it's legalities; but come on, the OC spray is sold over the counter. It is a non-lethal threat deterrent that many women carry in their purse.

I'll add that in my CWP class OC spray was a huge part of the class, as to provide more options than only deadly force with a firearm.

-Jason

[hyrax]

I just have to ask.....why do you feel you need to carry all these things? Are you in such an area that you feel so in danger or are you hanging with people that bring that kind of lifestyle with them? Perhaps you are the kind that likes to be mistaken for a law enforcement officer. Everyone has their own reasons, but I am genuinely curious on what motivates people to chose a certain form of defense over/additional to another.

[divegeek]

Anyone can absolutely carry OC. I'm not 100% on an ASP and it's legalities; but come on, the OC spray is sold over the counter. It is a non-lethal threat deterrent that many women carry in their purse.

In Utah, it's illegal to carry a concealed "dangerous weapon". So, the question is whether or not the baton or the OC are "dangerous weapons" under the law. The definition is in 76-10-501:

(5) (a) "Dangerous weapon" means any item that in the manner of its use or intended use is capable of causing death or serious bodily injury. The following factors shall be used in determining whether a knife, or any other item, object, or thing not commonly known as a dangerous weapon is a dangerous weapon:
(i) the character of the instrument, object, or thing;
(ii) the character of the wound produced, if any;
(iii) the manner in which the instrument, object, or thing was used; and
(iv) the other lawful purposes for which the instrument, object, or thing may be used.
(b) "Dangerous weapon" does not include any explosive, chemical, or incendiary device as defined by Section 76-10-306.

If you look at 76-10-306, OC spray does not qualify as an "explosive, chemical or incendiary device", so this definition is all that applies.

So, is OC spray capable of "causing death or serious bodily injury" in its manner of use or intended use? By design, used as intended, OC spray is not capable of causing death or serious bodily injury in a healthy person. If the person has a respiratory condition or other infirmity then OC can cause death or serious injury, but that's not its intended use.

I don't know anything about the baton. In its use as intended (hitting people) is it capable of inflicting death or serious injury? Depends how heavy it is, I suppose, and whether or not it could be swung with enough force to break bones or inflict serious head injuries, etc.

[Hawk87]

Under that definition I would say an asp qualifies, you can hurt some one really, really bad with one of those.

[divegeek]

Under that definition I would say an asp qualifies, you can hurt some one really, really bad with one of those.

Broken bones? Fractured skull? I don't think massive bruises or welts would count.

[hyrax]

An ASP will easily break an arm and crack open a noggin given enough force. Its akin to carrying a tire iron or small crow bar.

[Snurd]

Under that definition I would say an asp qualifies, you can hurt some one really, really bad with one of those.

Broken bones? Fractured skull? I don't think massive bruises or welts would count.

One of my friends has a baton, and feeling how heavy they are, I'm sure you could break a bone or fracture a skull with it.

[divegeek]

One of my friends has a baton, and feeling how heavy they are, I'm sure you could break a bone or fracture a skull with it.

And since hitting people is its normal intended use, I think that would qualify it as a dangerous weapon.

Note the difference with something like a pen knife. Clearly, you could slash open someone's jugular with a pen knife, but that's not what it's intended to be used for.

[Paul]

I find it shocking that you are a CWP Instructor, and don't know an answer for at the very least, the OC spray.

Anyone can absolutely carry OC. I'm not 100% on an ASP and it's legalities; but come on, the OC spray is sold over the counter. It is a non-lethal threat deterrent that many women carry in their purse.

I'll add that in my CWP class OC spray was a huge part of the class, as to provide more options than only deadly force with a firearm.

-Jason

I'm sorry I shocked you.
You will notice that the OP asked about "OC Chemical Spray: Police grade spray, not mace or pepper spray usually sold at sporting goods stores"
You will also notice I said "Not sure what I think about the OC spray." (I don't know enough about specifically what the OP asked about. I'm not a "OC Chemical Spray: Police grade spray" expert.) My wife has pepper spray. I sell pepper spray, and personally normal pepper spray is not something I would be concerned about. I also cover pepper spray in my CFP courses. (I'm not as ignorant as you seem to suggest, thank you very much.)
As others have stated, in some case it could probably be argued that "OC Chemical Spray: Police grade spray, not mace or pepper spray usually sold at sporting goods stores" is capable of being considered a weapon and/or causing death or serious bodily injuries in certain circumstances. That may not be it's intended use, but people have killed others with Bic pens and thats not their intended use. (Does my sons 3" blade knife consistute a tool or a weapon? If its a weapon, he can't carry it.") I think its possible to argue that darn near anything is capable of causing death or serious bodily injury. Depends on intent and other things. I prefer to err on the side of caution. Get a permit then you don't have to worry about it. I should have spend more time on my first post, but sometimes many of us simply don't have the time to make a detailed post.

[divegeek]

That may not be it's intended use, but people have killed others with Bic pens and thats not their intended use.

Which is why it's not illegal to carry a Bic pen concealed in your pocket. Neither is OC spray a dangerous weapon, even "police grade". The police use it because it's designed to be non-lethal.

[Paul]

That may not be it's intended use, but people have killed others with Bic pens and thats not their intended use.

Which is why it's not illegal to carry a Bic pen concealed in your pocket. Neither is OC spray a dangerous weapon, even "police grade". The police use it because it's designed to be non-lethal.

I agree. However a machete's intended use is not chopping up people, but I'd like to see you explain why you had it concealed.
I don't and didn't know enough about "police grade" OC. (My post was also rather hurried and not really explained well due to time constraints)
We live in a day and age, where almost anything can be argued legally or illegally one way or another and there are plenty of goofy laws buried in plenty of place in code and case law as well. I for one prefer to err on the side of caution and be as legal as I can. Get a permit then you don't have to worry about much of anything. (And in many cases you don't have to worry about it anyway... but I'd hate to see someone get in trouble over something small and stupid.)

Is it just me or aren't there states and places where civilians are prohibited from carrying pepper spray / mace? (Maybe I'm just making that up)

[Car Knocker]

According to the following link, pepper spray is legal in all states but many states have some sort of restrictions.
http://www.misdefenseproducts.com/Peppe ... -sp-6.html