Investing - precious metals

[Jesse 8]

Thanks Kevin

Shot placement is King, penetration is Queen, but a wide wound channel is the Ace in the hole.

[2litl2l8]

A grand will buy a reloading setup no problem. Not much of a better investment than that.....I have a whole bunch of cases to reload as well....lots of 30-06.

[sarahbn]

Don't get me wrong, I like guns, and in an end-of-the-world scenario they'd be a better investment than gold. But in a "guns or butter" scenario I'm going to have to beg to differ with the guys, and go for the butter. You can't eat your gun nor feed it to your children, nor trade it with anybody who doesn't have extra food. If, as I do, you fear a hyperinflation scenario like Weimar Germany, you must have food storage if you're to not be the guy carting around a billion dollars in a wheelbarrow to buy a loaf of bread. You will, of course, need at least one gun to defend your food with, but if you're reading this here you're probably already set in that department.

But if you've already got food, get more guns and ammo.

[hibby76]

If the economy returns to "normal" conditions and the fiscal concerns go away, I think gold will swing back down with a vengeance.

The dollar is the best among a lot of really bad currencies. If politicians continue to spend and tax like morons the value of metals will remain steady while they print and inflate the USD making it appear to become more valuable.

I believe that sometime within the next 50 years metals will become extremely valuable and will see a 100x or better return against the dollar. However, in the relative short run I think it's a very risky investment.

I do agree that silver is at a relative low and that there's no reason to believe that it will continue to decrease in value.

............lots of hype and emotion in metals right now. My gut says don't put your money there right now unless you're trying to take advantage of some short term volatility.

[Jarubla]

Not only do I collect coins and silver bullion, I also work through a great financial adviser and have been able to earn very good returns through his company over the past few years. Investments in stocks are risky without a good adviser. I also have diversified my portfolio and and have several baskets where I have invested. Some of those investments are in and IRA and other personalized retirement accounts which carry minimal risk and guaranteed minimum pay out based on your investment. If you would like more info you could pm me and I will give more details. And yes, you do not make money anymore by keeping it in a bank, you used to be able to but the days of 6 1/4% interest and higher have been over for nearly 15 years. There are much better options out there and many of them offer decent fluidity.

I say +1 on Cinhil. It is all about making sure you have hedges with your investments. Spread your investments out (avoid the single egg/basket type things). Are a lot of us worried about the way the F.R. and the dollar are going? Yes. God willing, our country and her people will get through it. What I am worried about is the pain for us to get well again, and as such I am trying to prepare in a few simple 'ant-like' methods (if you are familiar with Aesop's Fables...). If you can place a few options out there to hedge you against possible outcomes, well, I call that simply being prepared. I learned that a brazillion years ago in the B.S.A.

If I may offer my two cents, go buy some 'junk silver' coins http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junk_silver. They are closest to spot price, and you'll get the most for your FRNs. I have had good expereinces at Dave Hur Jewelers in Orem by the University Mall:

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1680&bih=853&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=dave+hur+jewelers+orem+utah&fb=1&gl=us&hq=dave+hur+jewelers&hnear=0x874d7804e4b45119:0x642bc3cf90b21ed1,Orem,+UT&cid=0,0,17222258587217646819&ei=bD28T4avDen9sQLwvPQa&sa=X&oi=local_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CB0Q_BIwAA

I echo the suggestions from other folks; 'beans boolits and band-aids' first as preparation hedges. Then pick up some silver.

As a last parting thought, beware of catching the coin collector bug, lots of really beautiful/cool/rare/expensive coins out there (OK so I lied, one more tip: get a 'Red Book' if you are going numismatic, the difference of a grade or two can mean multiple thousands of dollars!)

Best o' luck to you Daeyel!

-Jay

[Daeyel]

Oh, I already caught the collecting bug, but I stick to US Cents. Grandfathers 2nd wife's first hubby was a big collector, apparently she has hundreds of thousands of dollars in gold and silver coins in a bank vault. I can't for the life of me convince her to get them graded though.

[Cinhil]

Oh, I already caught the collecting bug, but I stick to US Cents. Grandfathers 2nd wife's first hubby was a big collector, apparently she has hundreds of thousands of dollars in gold and silver coins in a bank vault. I can't for the life of me convince her to get them graded though.

If you can get her to go and get them graded the value of those coins can increase by $1,000.00's! Depending on coin, grade, grading company once it is graded it should not go down in value and normally increases the value significantly because they would then be encased, or encapsulated and no longer subject to abrasions and defacing like other coins. I would certainly point this out to her and then do this, it would really help. It can also help with insurance by providing a greater payout, based on value and replacement costs should there be loss of these through theft or fire or other means.

Definitely point these things out to your wife and do these things as soon as possible for your protection and your portfolio and insurance valuations!

[Daeyel]

Dad has already tried. She is adamantly opposed to doing anything with the coins. Its too bad,because they are going to end up selling them for hospice care, and lose significant money. Whoever buys those coins will get a good deal, he was an extremely discriminate collector, and these coins have not been on the market since the 1950's and 60's. There may be some real eye openers in there.

[divegeek]

As a long term storage for monetary value it works well (unless someone is ever able to turn lead into gold).

We actually can turn other metals into stable, non-radioactive gold. It's easier to turn mercury into gold than lead, but both can be done. At present, the cost of doing it is more than the value of the gold produced, by a large factor -- about 10x. Improvements in the process could change that, though.

[jktseug]

As a long term storage for monetary value it works well (unless someone is ever able to turn lead into gold).

We actually can turn other metals into stable, non-radioactive gold. It's easier to turn mercury into gold than lead, but both can be done. At present, the cost of doing it is more than the value of the gold produced, by a large factor -- about 10x. Improvements in the process could change that, though.

I actually think I remember reading something like that, but really I was thinking mass scale and value. We can turn water into hydrogen, and hydrogen is a great fuel, but that doesn't make it cost effective. Apparently it takes more energy to make the hydrogen than you will get using the hydrogen.

[Hawk87]

As a long term storage for monetary value it works well (unless someone is ever able to turn lead into gold).

We actually can turn other metals into stable, non-radioactive gold. It's easier to turn mercury into gold than lead, but both can be done. At present, the cost of doing it is more than the value of the gold produced, by a large factor -- about 10x. Improvements in the process could change that, though.

I actually think I remember reading something like that, but really I was thinking mass scale and value. We can turn water into hydrogen, and hydrogen is a great fuel, but that doesn't make it cost effective. Apparently it takes more energy to make the hydrogen than you will get using the hydrogen.

This is true. This is also why hydrogen fueled cars aren't really a great idea. Even more so when you consider the fact that a large part of the energy we would be using would be from fossil fuels anyway. There are other ways of getting hydrogen, but they involve using fossil fuels as well.

To the OP, I would get a good financial adviser and work through them. They will be able to get you the best return for the least amount of risk.

[Cinhil]

Dad has already tried. She is adamantly opposed to doing anything with the coins. Its too bad,because they are going to end up selling them for hospice care, and lose significant money. Whoever buys those coins will get a good deal, he was an extremely discriminate collector, and these coins have not been on the market since the 1950's and 60's. There may be some real eye openers in there.

If she is adamant about just selling them for hospice care (a seriously evil thing in my humble opinion--but I am not going to judge), I would perhaps suggest that she get in touch with a reputable coin dealer. There are several in the valley as has been mentioned by myself and others. If she would like more than what these dealers would purchase them for then she could contact the Utah Numismatic Society of which I am the secretary. This coin club has many collectors who would be able to purchase at a higher rate, based on their knowledge and experience, than a coin dealer as they do not have to worry about turning around and selling them to make a profit themselves.

I have contact information available for members of this numismatic (coin club) and can direct you to people who may be able or willing to purchase what she has. A coin dealer would perhaps be willing to purchase the whole lot at a base overall price. There may be options available here that she may not have thought of and she could do better if selling is her desire.

You are welcome to pm me for my number or for other numbers or information should she choose to do the right thing and at least keep the coins in circulation (so to speak) by selling them to people who will cherish and care for the coins she has.

[Daeyel]

Thank you for the offer, grandparents live in Norcal. It's kind of a sensitive subject now, after the last discussion.

[divegeek]

As a long term storage for monetary value it works well (unless someone is ever able to turn lead into gold).

We actually can turn other metals into stable, non-radioactive gold. It's easier to turn mercury into gold than lead, but both can be done. At present, the cost of doing it is more than the value of the gold produced, by a large factor -- about 10x. Improvements in the process could change that, though.

I actually think I remember reading something like that, but really I was thinking mass scale and value. We can turn water into hydrogen, and hydrogen is a great fuel, but that doesn't make it cost effective. Apparently it takes more energy to make the hydrogen than you will get using the hydrogen.

True, but a completely different situation.

Breaking hydrogen-oxygen bonds requires as much energy as you can get out of reassembling the bonds, by definition. With the normal losses that come about in any energy transformation process, you can only get less energy out of burning the hydrogen than you put in to obtain it. These are facts guaranteed by the laws of thermodynamics. We'd have to discover some radical new physics to change that.

Turning mercury (or lead) into gold is a different situation entirely. There's no thermodynamic requirement that it be energy-intensive. Many methods of generating fast-moving particles are energy-intensive, but not all of them, and some of them are useful for other things -- like energy generation. It's possible that no one will ever discover an approach which makes it cost-effective, but it was also possible that no one would find a way to cost-effectively manufacture synthetic diamonds, and that has happened (at least industrial-quality diamonds, and they continue to improve). No new physics is required, just really good nuclear engineering.

There are other things that could make gold a plentiful, cheap resource, too. Asteroid mining is at least a few decades away from being feasible, but when we get there gold will absolutely become dirt cheap. It's not inconceivable that some tremendously rich mine might be discovered, too.

In the short term, gold may or may not be a good investment. As others have said, the price is pretty high right now -- but you could have said that 10 years ago and everyone would nod, and the price has quadrupled since then. Could it continue going much higher? Certainly. But there are no guarantees.

Many people who buy lots of gold, however, do it on the assumption that gold is a permanently-scarce resource, and just because that has always been true in the past is no reason to believe it will always continue to be true. Until a hundred years ago it was always true that messages could travel no faster than ships or horses and people could not fly. Until 50 years ago it was always true that humans could not leave the planet. You can come up with many, many more examples.

I actually do own gold. Not physical gold; I buy shares of a gold-backed mutual fund from time to time, and I buy it as a hedge against inflation -- basically part of my portfolio which I would normally keep as cash. It's performed well for me. Not as well as some stocks, but significantly better than others. I think it's a useful part of a diversified portfolio, and doing it through a fund is convenient because there's no need to ship or store physical coins or bars.

But I wouldn't put a lot of my savings into it, and I wouldn't buy it as a hedge against disaster. I think food, ammunition, water purification equipment and other survival gear are better for that.

[steelhawk]

I don't buy gold or silver anymore. I have a bit from many years ago. I do buy food storage, survival stuff and both ammo and components to make ammo.

If times get bad (more likely "when") you will need guns and ammo to protect it, and you can always trade bullets for items you don't have.