Story and question

[UtahCFP]

Whoa....

A CFP even a Instructor CFP is not considered Valid ID via the state and the training I have recieved. I am not saying that certain business's and state agency's might not accept it. However for the letter of the law or legally speaking a CFP is not a valid ID, that is at least what I have been trained and taught to teach via the states standpoints.

Does this mean you can argue it with some code, perhaps. Per the BCI they says it is not, have they been wrong before, yep. But I would not advise that it is considered said until something is officially changed.

Agreed the CFP is not a "state issued ID". However, it is an ID (it identifies you as someone who can carry a concealed firearm in Utah, for example) and there are organizations that are OK with using it as one form of proof of identification.

The original post described a gent who got his knickers in a twist 'cause he thought it shouldn't be shown to anybody except officers. That part is just plain wrong.

[DaKnife]

It is not an "Official State ID" as per the state, but it is actually a photo ID issued by the state so many organizations do recognize and accept it. Especially if they have any idea as to what it takes to get and keep one.

It's funny, that the old guy probably would have accepted a cheap High School ID card, a Divecert card or probably nearly anything else with your name and your photo on it, but freaked out at accepting a Photo ID that requires a full fingerprint set and a background check to obtain.

[My Trigger Guard]

Yes the ID can be shown to anyone, the guy freaking out about it is his own issue of not knowing about the law.

I would however advise against going around and flashing your permit to everyone it defeats the purpose of carrying concealed IE the element of surprise. Plus it could lead to other unneccessary discussions and questions. Such as are you carrying today and we have a no guns policy please leave. Or even to this engagement that started the discussion.

But ya the guy at the counter could definatly take a CC class and learn a lot more.

[Zacharia]

I would however advise against going around and flashing your permit to everyone it defeats the purpose of carrying concealed IE the element of surprise. Plus it could lead to other unneccessary discussions and questions. Such as are you carrying today and we have a no guns policy please leave. Or even to this engagement that started the discussion.

I guess I think more like an OC'er. I would be willing to bet that statistically a bank teller, retail cashier, voting poll worker, or someone else legitimately asking to see your id is not the person you need a tactical advantage over by keeping your weapon a secret from them in all but the rarest of rare occasions.
I don't accept that argument.

Regarding the "unnecessary discussion," I would categorize those discussions in the furthering RKBA file, and gladly have those conversations any day. I've never been asked to leave for using my cfp as id, but if I did, and the manager/supervisor backed up the employee; I would respectfully take my business elsewhere and you would find a thread in the boycott forum within a few days.

[Utah_patriot]

What Walmart?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[My Trigger Guard]

I would however advise against going around and flashing your permit to everyone it defeats the purpose of carrying concealed IE the element of surprise. Plus it could lead to other unneccessary discussions and questions. Such as are you carrying today and we have a no guns policy please leave. Or even to this engagement that started the discussion.

I guess I think more like an OC'er. I would be willing to bet that statistically a bank teller, retail cashier, voting poll worker, or someone else legitimately asking to see your id is not the person you need a tactical advantage over by keeping your weapon a secret from them in all but the rarest of rare occasions.
I don't accept that argument.

Regarding the "unnecessary discussion," I would categorize those discussions in the furthering RKBA file, and gladly have those conversations any day. I've never been asked to leave for using my cfp as id, but if I did, and the manager/supervisor backed up the employee; I would respectfully take my business elsewhere and you would find a thread in the boycott forum within a few days.

Sure to each his own, but if your going about it more like an Oc'er then your open carrying and no need to inform someone of something thats in plain view. Yes I do open carry depending on my circumstances of the day.

If I am CCing then what is the point of concealing it if your going to go around telling everyone you have it? Bank teller, boss, person at the drive through window or not who cares I do not want anyone to know that I am carrying a firearm ever, for so many reasons it could fill a book.

This doesnt mean that my views on the matter, teaching, education and discussions around said must stop just becuase I do not tell people I carry a gun. Just doesnt mean I tell them I currently have one on me, or where it could be located or what caliber etc its no ones business. I am safer for it too. Statistically or not a stranger is a stranger, you could even know someone and not really know them. LoL Want Some Candy

To use a quote that is recently being tainted by current news events. Walk softly and carry a big stick. But hey again to each his own, conduct your business as you see fit thats what makes america great, your definatly not breaking any laws by doing said nor would I want it to be against the law. I just think it is not the best approach.

Cheers

[abrian8]

I have used mine as second form at banks and also getting through security at airports. Airports including but not limited to SLC.

[bagpiper]

I would however advise against going around and flashing your permit to everyone it defeats the purpose of carrying concealed IE the element of surprise. Plus it could lead to other unneccessary discussions and questions. Such as are you carrying today and we have a no guns policy please leave. Or even to this engagement that started the discussion.

There is a difference between "flashing your permit to everyone" and using at a form of ID.

Remember, the permit confers multiple legal privileges to the holder. It isn't just about concealed.

Certainly being able to legally carry a concealed firearm is one benefit.

I'd suggest that all else being equal, being able to legally carry a fully loaded firearm is an even bigger benefit. After all, if you were given the Hobson's choice of either concealed OR fully loaded (but not both), which would you choose? Unloaded and concealed, or open and fully loaded? I think in most cases, the advantages of fully loaded would outweigh the advantages of concealed.

The permit also allows the holder to legally carry a usable gun into federal gun free school zones, into the K-12 schools themselves, and onto college compuses that would all otherwise be off limits under federal and/or State law.

There is also the exemption from the Brady Background Check fee. Though that had little to do with actually carrying.

For those in the know, the permit is also a fairly strong indicator that the permit holder is not a major criminal, what with lifetime bans for felonies and DV misdemeanors, long wait periods for alcohol related offenses, etc, and daily cross checks against warrants.

I believe there are only two advantages for the private citizen to CCing over OCing:

1-Easier weapons retention as someone can't grab from you what they don't know you have.

2-Easier weapons retention as someone can't ask you to leave, fire you, arrest you, or otherwise take negative action for carrying a gun contrary to their policy or even law if they have no idea you have the gun in the first place.

A possible third advantage of comfort of dress actually splits 50/50 depending on the season. It is very nice to be able to wear a coat that covers a gun. It is equally as nice to be able to carry a gun without having to wear an additional,hot cover garment.

I flat out reject the "element of surprise" in deploying my firearm as a benefit of CCing. I don't want to surprise anyone. I'm not a cop, nor a Marine sniper. I'm not a criminal. I don't want to ever have to use my gun in self defense, doubly so not against any human being. I would much rather have the deterrent effect of a visible gun, obvious good situational awareness on my part, and other "hard target" indicators prevent the need to ever use my gun than I would have the element of surprise after I need to use the gun, perhaps only because the bad guy didn't know I was fully prepared to defend myself.

That all said, I cc or casually conceal carry as or more often these days than I do deliberately OC. But that is done for reasons of comfort, for the social convenience of not having everyone know I am carrying, etc, and never for any desire to have an element of surprise.

And there have been several times when my Utah permit has been readily accepted as a second form of ID for locations where such was required. In some cases, these areas were legally off limits to firearms, but my using the permit as a second form of government issued ID never resulted in any more than a simple, "You're not in possession of a gun now are you?" To which an answer of "No. I don't like going to jail," was more than sufficient...especially considering I was going to be stepping through a metal detector in about 10 feet.

Charles

[usp40]

Hey, you never know the pain some people carry. This old timer could have been beaten within an inch of his life by a CFP...hence the anxiety at seeing another one.

LOL

Thank you for the facts and voicing in guys. Some great posts in this thread.

[gravedancer]

I frequently use my permit when asked for photo ID. Really, it boils down to the rules each business has in place as to whether they will accept it or not.

[PorterN]

Having worked walmart customer service, the computer system needs a two letter state code and the corresponding correct number of digits of a DL#. For returns, a CFP doesn't work, but I always show my permit when buying alcohol, ammo, or R-rated movies and no one has ever flipped out. it just takes them forever to find the birth date if they don't already know you have to be 21 to even have a permit.

I have been told that one reason the permit may not be valid ID is that the applicant submits the photo - the photo isn't taken by a government employee, or something like that. but i'm not positive of that.

[quychang]

My wife and daughter are both pharmacy techs with Walgreens. I can tell you that for sure, they will not accept a ccw permit as valid ID for drug purchases. And for what it's worth a lot of ccw carriers get irate over it and give them a load of crap that they don't need. The techs don't make the rules, and for their purposes a valid drivers license or a state issued ID card are the only acceptable forms of ID.

Just my two cents.

Quychang
<insert witty tagline here>

[quychang]

Slight addition to previous post. They will also accept military ID and valid passports on purchases, so I was correct, but incomplete.

And, in the discussion regarding it, I got another earful about people with permits being irate and confrontational over the situation. I know I'm new to the forum, but people that can't accept the rules make us all look bad, and it seems to me that everyone might want to remember that we should be ambassadors of good citizenship, not jerks.

Just another penny added to the above 2 cents....for what it's worth.

Quychang

[DaKnife]

I respect the pharmacies position, but could you ask her for a citation for why they can't accept this particular state issued Photo ID? One that verifies our identity better than a Drivers license. The only "State ID" I could find out there is the DMV issued "State Identification" card. I didn't have to give a full set of prints to drive a car, and the DMV ID card doesn't require any prints. Its really hard to argue that somehow this isn't a state issued ID, when it most certainly is an ID issued by the state. And one with stricter requirements than a DL or DMV issued Identification Card

In fact I know that in a prior post above I wrote that it was said that the CFP was not a "State ID" but I've just spent 30 minutes searching the BCI site and skimming through the state code, and I can't find where that restriction is established. I've been accepting of that rule, but now that I look I can't find a real citation from an official source to support it. The only thing I can find is the statement on the back of the card itself that says "To verify the validity of this permit for law enforcement purposes only, contact: ###-###-###6" but before you claim this supports the point that it's for identifying your right to enhanced carry, that statement is right next to the one giving the number for every other inquiry, ###-###-###5 only one digit separates the two.

[quychang]

We did discuss it somewhat at length...actually on more than one occasion (like every time someone has been a jerk about it). There are a couple issues. One is the pharmacies are bound by federal regulations when dispensing controlled substances (they don't ask for ID if it's not controlled) and the ccw permit isn't on the federal list. The other issue which I don't know the answer to, is "how hard are they to forge?

They also don't accept foreign consulate ID"s, foreign DL's, Student visa's...if you're a foreign national, you pretty much have to supply your passport. Again, they don't make the rules, and may not even agree with them, but they can be fired for not enforcing them. Also for what it's worth, the state issues them, but they won't accept them as ID in state liquor stores either.

I would agree that the hoops we jump through to get the permit are much more stringent than those to get a DL, and I agree that they "should" be accepted, but jumping all over sales clerks isn't the way to get anything changed.

Quychang