How does target shooting start fires?

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Re: How does target shooting start fires?

Postby UtahRSO on Wed 04 Jul 2012 1:29 pm

UtahCFP wrote:May not be the bullet causing the spark. Could be something the bullet causes to move quickly into something else, and those two bits cause a spark. Friction and static electricity could be at play.

In the absence of steel-jacketed/cored bullets or exploding targets, this sounds like something that could explain how a fire gets started from lead/copper ammo. Good thinking, UtahCFP!
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Re: How does target shooting start fires?

Postby bagpiper on Mon 09 Jul 2012 9:53 am

Sam Fidler wrote:Generating sparks is not synonymous with getting a fire to start.


Bear in mind, that goes both directions. While a spark may not start a fire, it may also be possible to start a fire without a spark being present. I note that the recent fire in Herriman is being reported as having been started by a driver who pulled his car off the road and thus had the muffler and/or catalytic converter in contact with some dry grass.

Spark or not, we all know that when an object travels at some 3700 fps (the fast side of a .223) which is a little over 2500 mph slows to 0 fps in something approaching 0 seconds, all of that kinetic energy has to be converted to some other form of energy. Some is converted to sound, some certainly goes to deforming the round and impacted target. But some of it has to go to heat. 1200 foot pounds of energy is equal to just over 1.5 BTU. A typical kitchen match generates about 1 BTU of energy and we all know that is way more than is needed to start wildfire. (For reasons none of us understand, it often seems to take 1000 times that to actually start a campfire when we want to start a fire. :x But starting an unwanted wildfire seems to be much easier than starting a desired camp fire.)

That all said, from my own personal experience, plus "Mythbuster"-type video of how tough it is to ignite car's fuel tank with bullets, I have a hard time believing that actual shooting of non-tracer rounds is going to start a fire in most cases. I suspect that exploding targets, tracer rounds, cigs butts, or even catalytic converters and mufflers are far higher risk than a regular bullet striking the typical earthen backstop. But the simple numbers above tell me that it is feasible. Heck, we once had a fire start in a bathroom from a magnifying makeup mirror reflecting the southern Utah sun onto a bath towel. Fortunately my mother found it just as the smoking towel burst into flames and was able to toss it into the shower to extinguish. It was a freak collision of the sun angle through the window and the magnifying mirror reflecting and concentrating the light onto a towel. In some 20 years in the home, it happened once. One day out of 7,000 days in the home. But even with 1-in-10,000 or 1-in-1,000,000 odds, sometimes the turn comes up.

If 2,000 people are out shooting Statewide on any given weekend, and they shoot an average of 500 rounds each that is a million rounds down range each weekend. That is some 50 million rounds a year. So even if a bullet starts a fire only 1 time in 10 million (taking into account the need for just the wrong conditions) that is some 5 fires a year (in a year when conditions are conducive to such problems). I admit right now these numbers come out of my arm pit and could by off by huge amounts. But as a first WAG, they strongly suggest to me that while rare, it does look to be feasible for a small number of fires to be started by regular bullets fired in makeshift ranges when environmental conditions are just right (or wrong as the case may be).

None of this says we should be banning shooting on public lands generally. However, in a year when both federal and State land managers are considering a complete ban on all human activities and even public access in certain areas, banning shooting in some specific areas may not be unreasonable. My preference, would be to instead see a requirement for certain safety precautions. Just as boaters are required to have certain equipment (life jacket per person, paddles, bail bucket, etc) and as those who build camp fires are required to observe certain safety measures (fire ring, clear ground for a certain distance, etc), it might make sense to require that those shooting on public lands have a fire extinguisher and shovel present, that they clear the impact area of flammables, etc.

But one way or another, I think it would be poor strategy to deny all possibility of shooting directly causing fires. We need to point out how rare it is (both in terms of number of rounds shot by number of shooters, but also in relation to total number of wildfires). We need to make sure that any government response is both legal and proper. But we also need to be actively engaged in educating other shooters, practicing fire safety ourselves, and maybe even considering whether some limited restrictions on shooting are not maybe necessary.

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Re: How does target shooting start fires?

Postby UtahCFP on Mon 09 Jul 2012 4:33 pm

I suspect that its easier to get a fire started by a round (non-steel) in places where people often go to shoot. Why, you ask? 'Cause of all the stuff people bring to shoot at. Shooting into a clay backstop, and there isn't much stuff that could make sparks. Shooting into that grass where some guy shot up a computer monitor could have all sorts of odd bits laying about. There could be lots of un-natural thingies hiding in the thickets.
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Re: How does target shooting start fires?

Postby smo on Mon 09 Jul 2012 7:24 pm

Computer [monitor], odd bits laying around... :lolbang:

Sorry, I just couldn't help myself...
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Re: How does target shooting start fires?

Postby quychang on Mon 09 Jul 2012 8:41 pm

Computer [monitor], odd bits laying around... :lolbang:

Sorry, I just couldn't help myself...



Hey now, do YOU have the statistics of how flammable "bits" are? They could actually generate sparks all by themselves for all "I" can prove.. :lol3:

On the other hand, I think Charles more than has a point, and if anything is being way too conservative with his numbers. And I can't provide better numbers either, but my guess is the probability is higher than he suggests, not lower.

I think with all the hue and cry, Charles makes excellent points. The fact that there may be several thousand people out shooting at any given time, is still a very small number in terms of percentage of people in the state. Those people are all being manipulated by the media to see shooting as being a terrible thing that's causing millions of dollars in damage and fire fighting costs. I think it behooves us to stand together, and show people that we're willing to make reasonable sacrifices and take at the very least, reasonable precautions, such as fire extinguishers and shovels.

Although this year has been the worst for a number of years, meteorologists are warning that we may be entering a drought cycle. If that's the case, we may be looking at a number of years in a row with similar conditions. Perhaps not quite as bad, as in a true drought cycle we won't have extremes like this year following a very wet year. In other words, future years may not be as bad, as there may not be the same availability of fuel. But even so, planning on our part, could head off legislation that none of us will enjoy.

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Re: How does target shooting start fires?

Postby JoeSparky on Mon 09 Jul 2012 9:42 pm

smo wrote:Computer [monitor], odd bits laying around... :lolbang:

Sorry, I just couldn't help myself...


But where do the "EVEN" bits go? :ROFL:
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Re: How does target shooting start fires?

Postby UtahCFP on Mon 09 Jul 2012 10:38 pm

HCF :shock:
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Re: How does target shooting start fires?

Postby JoeSparky on Mon 09 Jul 2012 10:41 pm

HCF?
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Re: How does target shooting start fires?

Postby divegeek on Mon 09 Jul 2012 11:53 pm

JoeSparky wrote:
smo wrote:Computer [monitor], odd bits laying around... :lolbang:

Sorry, I just couldn't help myself...


But where do the "EVEN" bits go? :ROFL:

Even bits are zeros, so there's just nothing there.
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Re: How does target shooting start fires?

Postby UnderratedF00l on Tue 10 Jul 2012 12:41 am

divegeek wrote:Even bits are zeros, so there's just nothing there.


I'm not a programmer, but if we want to get "math crazy," there's a big difference between zero and nothing, so... there's that.
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Re: How does target shooting start fires?

Postby UtahCFP on Tue 10 Jul 2012 8:44 am

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Re: How does target shooting start fires?

Postby Car Knocker on Tue 10 Jul 2012 8:57 am

Let's move back a bit closer to the original topic, please. Thanks!
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Need responses to KSL Editorial attacking target shooting

Postby bagpiper on Tue 10 Jul 2012 11:33 am

KSL's Doug "Wrong" has an editorial on KSL attacking target shooting over the supposed fire danger.

A couple of the comments are bringing up important points, but some additional, thoughtful comments about the actual size of the risk and proper responses (as opposed to over-reaching or using a crises as a fine excuse to push an agenda) would be useful for any who have accounts on KSL.

Someone might even go so far as to ask why public ranges are so few and far between when compared with say public golf courses.

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Re: How does target shooting start fires?

Postby quychang on Tue 10 Jul 2012 12:25 pm

KSL's Doug "Wrong" has an editorial on KSL attacking target shooting over the supposed fire danger.


Thanks for bringing this to my/the forum's attention Charles. I would be in serious violation of board policies if I were to adequately express my opinion of Doug and his style of journalism. He has always been a rabble rouser, regardless of the subject, he loves to see if he can get people going. I make a point of turning him off. Glad someone pointed out somewhere I could add a comment, but in reality, we're just feeding his ego.

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Re: How does target shooting start fires?

Postby Cabinetmaker on Sun 15 Jul 2012 4:53 pm

Years ago I was helping dig a water line with a backhoe through some dry grass and weeds. We got a spark off the bucket and even with a shovel in my hand the fire almost got out of control.
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