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Sierra-West Jewelers Employees will now Carry!

6K views 23 replies 10 participants last post by  Crash 
#1 ·
This is awesome to read. After the Sierra-West Jewelers was robbed this last week the employees will be allowed to carry for protection.

FULL KSL STORY HERE

Branscomb said the two employees present at the time of the robbery are now doing "surprisingly well." Counseling has been made available to them, but Branscomb said he and other employees with proper licenses have started carrying guns.

"About half of our crew has now gone into owning their gun," he said. "You never know, when these folks come in, what they might do."
:thumbup: Thumb's up to the management of Sierra-West as this is the way it should be everywhere!
 
#3 ·
Makes me want to go and do some business there...come to think of it, I need a new chain for my wife. I may just go and visit them for that piece of jewelry.
 
#5 ·
OK you research kings...I looked and looked and couldn't find it but...I thought I read in another thread here that in a place of business that you have control over, you can carry concealed without a permit just like your home or car. So if that were the case, your employer could give you control of his business while you were there making it perfectly legal for you to carry a concealed firearm. If that is not the case it should be but then again lawful people should not have to have a permit anyway.
 
#6 ·
http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_10_050400.htm
The Law said:
76-10-504.
(1) Except as provided in Section 76-10-503 and in Subsections (2), (3), and (4), a person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon, as defined in Section 76-10-501,including an unloaded firearm on his or her person or one that is readily accessible for immediate use which is not securely encased, as defined in this part, in or on a place other than the person's residence, property, a vehicle in the person's lawful possession, or a vehicle, with the consent of the individual who is lawfully in possession of the vehicle, or business under the person's control is guilty of a class B misdemeanor.
You are correct about the business being under someone's control, but I think that has to do with the business owner, possibly a manager. But I don't know enough about it to really know. I wouldn't think that power could be delegated to another for the purpose of carrying a firearm, but someone else may prove me wrong.
 
#7 ·
I just read the section in Mitch Vilos' book (Gun Laws 4th Edition) about the above post. Here is the part that talks about it. It starts on the bottom of page 46.

Mitch Vilos' book said:
"The law now allows citizens to conceal weapons, including loaded handguns, in their vehicles, homes, on their property and in their own businesses without having a permit to carry a concealed weapon. ...
From what I take on this, it is only the business owner that can carry without a permit.
 
#9 ·
If you work for an employer who allows you to carry while at work that is okay. As long as the owner of the property has hired you and given you authorization to carry open or concealed while on the premises, you are protected especially if you are over 21 and do not have a concealed carry license. A business owner hires people to represent them, by allowing you to carry they are authorizing you as their agent to act in their best interests. You cannot be charged/fined for exercising your right to carry when your employer has allowed you to do so - you are their agent, it is as if you were them for all intents and purposes. Anywhere on their property is acceptable to carry, not on the public side walk though, you could have issues there. (IANAL)
 
#11 ·
mqondo said:
Where do you find that?
76-10-530 of Utah code explains things fairly well. There may be another one or two sections as ewell which may give clarification.
 
#12 ·
Cinhil said:
mqondo said:
Where do you find that?
76-10-530 of Utah code explains things fairly well. There may be another one or two sections as ewell which may give clarification.
How does the law regarding trespass into a house of worship and a private residence with a firearm have anything to do with allowing people to carry without a CFP in your place of business?
 
#13 ·
mqondo said:
Cinhil said:
mqondo said:
Where do you find that?
76-10-530 of Utah code explains things fairly well. There may be another one or two sections as ewell which may give clarification.
How does the law regarding trespass into a house of worship and a private residence with a firearm have anything to do with allowing people to carry without a CFP in your place of business?
I may have the wrong section of code however, this section may help:

76-10-511. Possession of loaded firearm at residence or on real property authorized.
Except for persons described in Section 76-10-503 and 18 U.S.C. Sec. 922(g) and as otherwise prescribed in this part, a person may have a loaded firearm:
(1) at the person's place of residence, including any temporary residence or camp; or
(2) on the person's real property.
I am at work and my reference materials, including Mitch Vilos book (4th edition) are at home. I am certain he references this there but am unable to do more at this time.
 
#14 ·
Cinhil said:
I may have the wrong section of code however, this section may help:

76-10-511. Possession of loaded firearm at residence or on real property authorized.
Except for persons described in Section 76-10-503 and 18 U.S.C. Sec. 922(g) and as otherwise prescribed in this part, a person may have a loaded firearm:
(1) at the person's place of residence, including any temporary residence or camp; or
(2) on the person's real property.
I am at work and my reference materials, including Mitch Vilos book (4th edition) are at home. I am certain he references this there but am unable to do more at this time.
The section you quoted above also has nothing to do with business owners allowing others to conceal at work. :dunno:
It only authorizes people to be able to carry a loaded firearm at their place of residence, including any temporary residence or camp, and on the person's real property.
I have Mitch's book, and it says nothing about allowing others to be able to conceal on property that is the business owners. Unless it is the business owner. At least not in the section quoted above. Page 77 in the book.

The only way around it, as far as I know, is to have a CFP. That way you can have a loaded and concealed firearm on you.
 
#15 ·
While this certainly isn't bad news, this to me, isn't super spectacular news; though I have extremely mixed emotions and a pounding tension headache since Saturday. You see, my wife is the "unamed female employee" who was working at Sierra West Jewelers Murray store last Friday. She was thrown under a counter, dragged by her hair into a back room and stared down the barrel of a revolver.. Dragged by her hair into another back room, threatened some more, then left to pick up the emotional pieces. I thank God that her and her manager got to walk away from that situation.

Tim Brandscom has always allowed CC in his stores by employees and customers. I believe he is making a public deal about it in this case to add a level of deterrent. I have an all new respect for situations that we read about in the news, then sit back and arm chair quarterback with what should have been done and what WE would have done in that situation. I can tell you that my wife and her manager did everything they could have. I believe 100% that they did everything right, and that even if either of them did have a gun on them, that it may not have done any good. It's extremely difficult to win a gunfight when your firearm is concealed and you have a gun to your head the ENTIRE time. That's not something the news mentioned, is it? You can't out-draw an already drawn gun... Especially one that is resting on the back of your head. I think I've made the point that I wanted to.

This has been an extremely difficult situation to deal with for everyone involved. My wife now has PTSD anytime a door opens, she sees any man in a black beenie or hoodie, and constantly sees the silver revolver flash in her brain... And the thieve's black eyes.

I pray none of you ever have to deal with this.
 
#18 ·
Cinhil said:
If you work for an employer who allows you to carry while at work that is okay. As long as the owner of the property has hired you and given you authorization to carry open or concealed while on the premises, you are protected especially if you are over 21 and do not have a concealed carry license.
We had a lengthy thread discussing this issue a while back, and the consensus was that this isn't true.

A business owner, and probably a manager, can lawfully carry concealed at their place of business without a permit, but there doesn't seem to be anything in the statutes that gives them authority to pass this permission on to employees or others. To be legal, non-managerial employees need to have a permit, or carry openly. I think it would be awesome if they opted for OC, but given the attitudes of much of the public that would probably be bad for business.
 
#19 ·
divegeek said:
Cinhil said:
If you work for an employer who allows you to carry while at work that is okay. As long as the owner of the property has hired you and given you authorization to carry open or concealed while on the premises, you are protected especially if you are over 21 and do not have a concealed carry license.
We had a lengthy thread discussing this issue a while back, and the consensus was that this isn't true.

A business owner, and probably a manager, can lawfully carry concealed at their place of business without a permit, but there doesn't seem to be anything in the statutes that gives them authority to pass this permission on to employees or others. To be legal, non-managerial employees need to have a permit, or carry openly. I think it would be awesome if they opted for OC, but given the attitudes of much of the public that would probably be bad for business.
In reading Mitch this evening he used 76-10-500 - 503 saying it was ok. Book is in the car at the moment so can't give page number but this was in the end of the book under quick references if I remember correctly.

I also believe that things on the owners premises work similar to the rules concerning private property where as an agent of say, my mother while on her property and with her permission it is okay to carry and protect that property, or myself/herself or others while there under her direction/permission. Again, with no special comments against such you would think that unless it were expressly forbidden then it would not be illegal, similar to the carry laws concerning Utah unloaded and open carry. Again, IANAL, this is just my thoughts on the subject.
 
#20 ·
Cinhil said:
divegeek said:
Cinhil said:
If you work for an employer who allows you to carry while at work that is okay. As long as the owner of the property has hired you and given you authorization to carry open or concealed while on the premises, you are protected especially if you are over 21 and do not have a concealed carry license.
We had a lengthy thread discussing this issue a while back, and the consensus was that this isn't true.

A business owner, and probably a manager, can lawfully carry concealed at their place of business without a permit, but there doesn't seem to be anything in the statutes that gives them authority to pass this permission on to employees or others. To be legal, non-managerial employees need to have a permit, or carry openly. I think it would be awesome if they opted for OC, but given the attitudes of much of the public that would probably be bad for business.
In reading Mitch this evening he used 76-10-500 - 503 saying it was ok. Book is in the car at the moment so can't give page number but this was in the end of the book under quick references if I remember correctly.
There's nothing in the law that would justify it, and especially not 76-10-500 - 503. If it were anywhere it would be in 76-10-504; none of the 500-503 statutes have anything to do with concealed carry.

Please give us references to the actual code, or at least direct quotes from Mitch's book. Hazy recollections of second-hand sources (and Mitch Vilos is a second-hand source, however authoritative) aren't useful.

Cinhil said:
I also believe that things on the owners premises work similar to the rules concerning private property where as an agent of say, my mother while on her property and with her permission it is okay to carry and protect that property
This is also wrong. There is nothing in the law that allows the owner of a residence to give permission to others to conceal in their residence. The law does allow the lawful possessor of a vehicle to give permission to others to conceal in their vehicle, but nothing about residences.

Here's what the law actually says:

76-10-504. Carrying concealed dangerous weapon -- Penalties.
(1) Except as provided in Section 76-10-503 and in Subsections (2), (3), and (4), a person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon, as defined in Section 76-10-501, including an unloaded firearm on his or her person or one that is readily accessible for immediate use which is not securely encased, as defined in this part, in or on a place other than the person's residence, property, a vehicle in the person's lawful possession, or a vehicle, with the consent of the individual who is lawfully in possession of the vehicle, or business under the person's control is guilty of a class B misdemeanor.
This says it's illegal for any person to carry a concealed dangerous weapon everywhere EXCEPT:

  • In the person's residence[/*]
  • On the person's property[/*]
  • In a vehicle in the person's lawful possession[/*]
  • In a vehicle with the consent of the individual who is lawfully in possession of the vehicle[/*]
  • In a business under the person's control.[/*]
That's it. There is no language which provides a "with consent" clause for residences or businesses, only vehicles.

With respect to residences and property, there is also 76-10-511, but that only authorizes possession of a loaded firearm, it does not authorize concealment. It also doesn't say the resident/owner can authorize others, even to possess.

There's also 76-10-530, which goes the other way: It allows owners, lessees and lawful residents of private residences to ban possession, but it doesn't give them any authority to allow possession or carry that isn't otherwise legal.
 
#21 ·
Shawn, thanks for the bullets as it helps break it down. I take this; "In a business under the person's control." to mean "person's control," to mean the actually owner? So the owner may carry as he/she will while on or about their business property but not anyone else unless they have met the appropriate standards of owning a CFP. Would this apply then to oc on that property as opposed to cc?

When you break it all down it can get real difficult if not familiar with legal jargon and word manipulation.
 
#22 ·
Cinhil said:
Shawn, thanks for the bullets as it helps break it down. I take this; "In a business under the person's control." to mean "person's control," to mean the actually owner?
In the long thread where we hashed this out before (which I highly recommend finding and reading), the consensus was that a manager probably "controls" the business as well, but not an ordinary employee.

Cinhil said:
So the owner may carry as he/she will while on or about their business property but not anyone else unless they have met the appropriate standards of owning a CFP. Would this apply then to oc on that property as opposed to cc?
76-10-504 is about concealed carry.

There is no law describing the limitations on open carry, so open carry is not limited.

There is a law saying loaded carry is prohibited on public streets. Is a business a public street? I wouldn't think so, but it's not defined.
 
#23 ·
SAMI said:
While this certainly isn't bad news, this to me, isn't super spectacular news; though I have extremely mixed emotions and a pounding tension headache since Saturday. You see, my wife is the "unamed female employee" who was working at Sierra West Jewelers Murray store last Friday. She was thrown under a counter, dragged by her hair into a back room and stared down the barrel of a revolver.. Dragged by her hair into another back room, threatened some more, then left to pick up the emotional pieces. I thank God that her and her manager got to walk away from that situation.

Tim Brandscom has always allowed CC in his stores by employees and customers. I believe he is making a public deal about it in this case to add a level of deterrent. I have an all new respect for situations that we read about in the news, then sit back and arm chair quarterback with what should have been done and what WE would have done in that situation. I can tell you that my wife and her manager did everything they could have. I believe 100% that they did everything right, and that even if either of them did have a gun on them, that it may not have done any good. It's extremely difficult to win a gunfight when your firearm is concealed and you have a gun to your head the ENTIRE time. That's not something the news mentioned, is it? You can't out-draw an already drawn gun... Especially one that is resting on the back of your head. I think I've made the point that I wanted to.

This has been an extremely difficult situation to deal with for everyone involved. My wife now has PTSD anytime a door opens, she sees any man in a black beenie or hoodie, and constantly sees the silver revolver flash in her brain... And the thieve's black eyes.

I pray none of you ever have to deal with this.
i feel for you and i feel for your wife my wife was asaulted on 25th street in ogden about 7 years ago and to this day somethings still get to her so hopefully your wife can handle this well. sucks to be you and your right we can never goback and be in the situation so the armchair quaterbacking doesn't help but know and let your wife know that there are allot of us behind you and wish you the best
 
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