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Open Letter to a Road Rager

13K views 43 replies 23 participants last post by  Snurd 
#1 ·
Sir -

I can only guess that you had a bad day, and the last place you wanted to be was in a busy WalMart parking lot. You made it obvious that you were less than pleased to stop for the group of 8 pedestrians that was walking in the cross walk - you made sure that your bumper was pretty close to us. Sorry that we delayed you. It was plain that you had no concern for the safety of my 10yr old daughter, 9yr old son, and me when you turned into the aisle we were walking in and rapidly accelerated right at us in your late model white Honda 4 door. You car speeding toward us was clearly a threat, and I was in fear for our safety.

Your reckless and irresponsible operation of that vehicle forced me confront your threat while getting my kids out of the way. I unholstered my weapon to protect me and mine. Between your wife yelling at you from the passenger side, and my M23 coming up from low ready, I'm glad you found the brakes. I'm also glad that I didn't have to fire my pistol into your vehicle because we observed you leave the WalMart parking lot, park at a fast food joint, and take your child from the back seat. You endangered two families with your actions. Shame on you, Sir.

I'd like to think that seeing me unholster and prepare to shoot you made you realize the foolishness and danger of your actions. Unfortunately, hot-headed people of your ilk must often learn the hard way.

Sincerely,

RRALower
 
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#3 ·
I glad that it went the way that you anticipated it SHOULD go, BUT, I would question the wisdom of your response.

For sake of argument.

A 185 - 230 gram bullet (assuming .45 ACP) is little match for a 2500 lb. car traveling at 45 feet per second (assuming 30 mph).

Let's say you fired the round, struck the driver (incapacitating head shot) and then began trying to get the family out of the way of the vehicle, which by now has traveled 90 feet and is still moving. Obviously, the 230 gram bullet did not slow the vehicle and depending on how the driver's death spams occurred, may have caused the vehicle to speed up, endangering countless lives in the process.

Perhaps a more sane approach would have been to use those precious few seconds to herd the family out of the traffic flow (..between the nearest parked cars???).

Clearly the fool was in the wrong but was your solution viable if the individual had not braked or slowed but kept on coming or sped up?
 
#6 ·
I decided not to contact LE. I did, however, alert WalMart management (my wife) and the security team is reviewing tape. I also have a witness, who commented that some people just shouldn't be driving cars.

As far as timing, car speed, and actions go -
The car was accelerating rapidly but it never got above, say 20-25mph. We were walking along the edge of the aisle, the kids closer to the parked cars and me closer to any traffic in the aisle. The kids saw and heard what was happening, so I was able to get them between cars - there wasn't time to get to safe cover so I drew my pistol.

I know that if I was forced to shoot, I'd have to shoot on the move or settle for sending at most two rounds.

Time slowed incredibly - everything was slow motion until the car stopped.

I feel good about my decisions - my priority being to safeguard the kids. I'd like to think that with the training I have, that shooting on the move would have carried me to safety.

Oh, I was carrying concealed. And I recently switched from an open top strong side kydex holster to a BH Serpa because I sometimes OC. I'm glad I practiced drawing from my new rig so much - my pistol was in my hand as if by magic.
 
#7 ·
RRALower said:
...SNIP... I'd like to think that with the training I have, that shooting on the move would have carried me to safety.
Oh, I was carrying concealed. And I recently switched from an open top strong side kydex holster to a BH Serpa because I sometimes OC. I'm glad I practiced drawing from my new rig so much - my pistol was in my hand as if by magic.
Still playing devil's advocate... If "shooting on the move would have carried" you "to safety", then would have moving without shooting have accomplished the same thing? Would not the threat have been remaining in the path of the oncoming car and movement, without a drawn gun, accomplished the same threat reducing outcome?

One philosophy espoused again and again by self-defense trainers here on this forum, is to get yourself (and/or your family) away from the threat and engage and neutralize only as a last resort. Of course, those arguing from the "hero complex" will say otherwise.

You could have moved just as fast, if not faster, by not drawing and instead, focusing on your escape route.

...again... playing the devil's advocate.

:raisedbrow:
 
#8 ·
This situation evolved quickly (they all do) and I made the decisions I thought best.

While I could have done many things differently, I stand by my threat assessment and actions. In my mind I wasn't playing hero, just reacting to the threat to my kids and me.

I see your experience and credentials in your signature. I appreciate and respect your advice and point of view. Thanks for your insight.
 
#9 ·
I think you did a good job. Getting your family to safety and stopping the threat. Glad you didn't have to shoot.
On the other hand of what dewittdj said, you may have made this guy think about his actions. You may have saved someone else's life by making him realize that what he did was very stupid. Maybe he won't do it again.
 
#11 ·
I sure don't want to bash on the OP. I really appreciate the story shared. I'm commenting because I've thought a lot recently about when I first got my Utah CFP. I had also just purchased my first firearm, a S&W M&P9c, so I was feeling real good about carrying a gun. It felt good. As Homer Simpson would say, "Like God must feel when he's holding a gun." :wink:
Anyway, at the time I thought that if I were crossing the street and a car were speeding toward me, I would be able to draw and shoot ([sarcasm]because there's obviously no other reason the car wouldn't be slowing[/sarcasm]). It terrifies me thinking about the heartache that would have occurred because of my immaturity at the time. I realize now, the best thing to do in almost every circumstance like that would simply be to avoid the car. It's much more likely the individual just doesn't see me because he or she is distracted by a baby in the back seat, or it's dark, or any number of reasons. Even if he is trying to run me down, I realize now it would be better to avoid the car rather than kill somebody unnecessarily or kill someone else with a stray shot. For me, it's almost always going to be, avoid the conflict, and only use my firearm if absolutely necessary.
I don't know how I would react if I had kids with me, and I can't armchair quarterback on the OP's story. Simply wanted to share my thoughts on that sort of situation.
 
#12 ·
RRALower said:
This situation evolved quickly (they all do) and I made the decisions I thought best.

While I could have done many things differently, I stand by my threat assessment and actions. In my mind I wasn't playing hero, just reacting to the threat to my kids and me.

I see your experience and credentials in your signature. I appreciate and respect your advice and point of view. Thanks for your insight.
When drawing your firearm in response to a perceived threat, you are generating a threat yourself. You are telegraphing that you are ready to use deadly force.

Suppose another CC'er were in the parking lot, oblivious to the speeding car but in the perceived line of fire. Would he be justified in assuming that your display was directly a threat to him?

This entire situation it a great example why, when you are carrying, you must maintain a heightened state of situational awareness. Be aware of what is going on around you and be on the lookout for trouble. Your primary responsibility should be to avoid trouble, and not walk headlong into.

Condition Code Yellow:
Yellow - Relaxed alert. No specific threat situation.

Your mindset is that "today could be the day I may have to defend myself." You are simply aware that the world is a potentially unfriendly place and that you are prepared to defend yourself, if necessary. You use your eyes and ears, and realize that "I may have to SHOOT today." You don't have to be armed in this state, but if you are armed you should be in Condition Yellow. You should always be in Yellow whenever you are in unfamiliar surroundings or among people you don't know. You can remain in Yellow for long periods, as long as you are able to "Watch your six." In Yellow, you are "taking in" surrounding information in a relaxed but alert manner, like a continuous 360 degree radar sweep.
My final question is rhetorical. If you felt you were in the right and the perceived threat was that the driver was using his deadly weapon [car] in a threatening manner, then why wouldn't you inform the police?

A individual as irresponsible as the driver was, should not be allowed to "get away" with his actions. A bully does not stop being a bully just because he backed down from a threat. He simply goes and takes out his frustrations on another victim. It is an example of a form of road rage known as "parking lot rage." In this case, it is the pedestrian that is usually threatened by the driver.

I see that many are arguing from the standpoint of "the ends justifies the means", or, "all's well that ends well." Philosophically, these are both weak points. I would argue that a good outcome could have been achieved a number of different ways that didn't involve the drawing ["brandishing"] of the firearm.
 
#13 ·
:agree: Well stated, if the threat was worth drawing on, it should be worth reporting. If for no other reason than to protect the OP from someone else reporting a MWAG.
 
#14 ·
I'm not going to agree or disagree with the OP drawing his gun in this situation, as I can really see it both ways. I will however add my opinion, that if a situation is life threatening enough to justify drawing your weapon in self defense, you should ALWAYS report it. If you have to honestly question whether or not you should report it, it probably wasn't a situation that warranted drawing your gun in the first place.

As for the outcome, great job on keeping you and your family safe. That is the reason we focus on self defense and carry a gun is to protect ourselves and our loved ones, and you accomplished that in this situation. As for whether or not you could have accomplished that without drawing, that's debatable. But you all went home safe, so :thumbsup:
 
#16 ·
Suppose another CC'er were in the parking lot, oblivious to the speeding car but in the perceived line of fire. Would he be justified in assuming that your display was directly a threat to him?
No, he is not shooting nor pointing at anyone but he is at the ready. Which in turn would put me at the ready and on high alert. I discuss this in detail in my classes. Body language, your current status and posture coupled with properly assessing the situation and in general stick to defending yours and yours alone unless its very clear cut self defense of a 3rd party you do not know.

Things happen quickly and the reflexes/decisions happend even quicker. He made the decision to draw I can not take that away from him. Would I, I dunno I was not there, I would like to think probably not.

Once this has happend though police should be notified, why was already described above. But lets not forget that if you didnt call the police that someone else might have and police could be looking for him. If I am that CCer in the parking lot observing, I am going to call. Then the post here, granted its a unique post might not help his case that he didnt report.

But please do not take this as critisizm of the OP, everytime someone has to draw there firearm for any reason I consider it a learning exp. Glad to hear that no one was harmed. :thumbup:
 
#17 ·
UtahJarhead said:
Dunno, if drawing it is what caused the driver to stop, then I'd say perfectly done, sir!
Might be a good time to point out that most crimes that are stopped by the introduction of a firearm, The firearm is never fired. I think this falls into that category. The firearm did it's intended job.
 
#18 ·
RustyShackleford said:
UtahJarhead said:
Dunno, if drawing it is what caused the driver to stop, then I'd say perfectly done, sir!
Might be a good time to point out that most crimes that are stopped by the introduction of a firearm, The firearm is never fired. I think this falls into that category. The firearm did it's intended job.
I'm not so sure. Do we think the motorist actually WAS TRYING to kill or injure, or just show his displeasure and to intimidate? In court, would the motorist try to establish the same claim against the OP... e.g., that the gun was pulled to he show his displeasure and to intimidate. I'm still not convinced there was an attempted murder here...
 
#19 ·
UtahCFP said:
RustyShackleford said:
UtahJarhead said:
Dunno, if drawing it is what caused the driver to stop, then I'd say perfectly done, sir!
Might be a good time to point out that most crimes that are stopped by the introduction of a firearm, The firearm is never fired. I think this falls into that category. The firearm did it's intended job.
I'm not so sure. Do we think the motorist actually WAS TRYING to kill or injure, or just show his displeasure and to intimidate? In court, would the motorist try to establish the same claim against the OP... e.g., that the gun was pulled to he show his displeasure and to intimidate. I'm still not convinced there was an attempted murder here...
Yeah, unfortunately I think tempers had more to do with this than anything.
 
#20 ·
RustyShackleford said:
Might be a good time to point out that most crimes that are stopped by the introduction of a firearm, The firearm is never fired. I think this falls into that category. The firearm did it's intended job.
This is the one issue I have with the new law allowing "brandishing" to stop unlawful force. Simply because it allows for brandishing when firing is not necessarily justified. It can serve to escalate the situation into a physical altercation where use of lethal force is not justified.

And to clarify: I have no problem with a law saying I'm allowed to "brandish," I just recognize the potential complications that could result if someone doesn't understand the repercussions.
 
#21 ·
schmack said:
RustyShackleford said:
Might be a good time to point out that most crimes that are stopped by the introduction of a firearm, The firearm is never fired. I think this falls into that category. The firearm did it's intended job.
This is the one issue I have with the new law allowing "brandishing" to stop unlawful force. Simply because it allows for brandishing when firing is not necessarily justified. It can serve to escalate the situation into a physical altercation where use of lethal force is not justified.

And to clarify: I have no problem with a law saying I'm allowed to "brandish," I just recognize the potential complications that could result if someone doesn't understand the repercussions.
+1
 
#22 ·
sagemassa said:
UtahCFP said:
I'm not so sure. Do we think the motorist actually WAS TRYING to kill or injure, or just show his displeasure and to intimidate? In court, would the motorist try to establish the same claim against the OP... e.g., that the gun was pulled to he show his displeasure and to intimidate. I'm still not convinced there was an attempted murder here...
Yeah, unfortunately I think tempers had more to do with this than anything.
+1
 
#23 ·
UtahCFP said:
RustyShackleford said:
UtahJarhead said:
Dunno, if drawing it is what caused the driver to stop, then I'd say perfectly done, sir!
Might be a good time to point out that most crimes that are stopped by the introduction of a firearm, The firearm is never fired. I think this falls into that category. The firearm did it's intended job.
I'm not so sure. Do we think the motorist actually WAS TRYING to kill or injure, or just show his displeasure and to intimidate? In court, would the motorist try to establish the same claim against the OP... e.g., that the gun was pulled to he show his displeasure and to intimidate. I'm still not convinced there was an attempted murder here...
+1
 
#25 ·
dewittdj said:
A 185 - 230 gram bullet (assuming .45 ACP) is little match for a 2500 lb. car traveling at 45 feet per second (assuming 30 mph).
Small nitpick... bullets are measured in grains, not grams. A 230 gain bullet is about 15 grams.
 
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