DaKnife said:
Okay but what do either of your points have to do with trying to get BCI to stop teaching this falsehood, and trying to get Law Enforcement from harassing people just because they have a visible weapon.
Let me be more brief then. Correcting this will require a multi-pronged approach and some time. A few instructors, permit holders, and organizations contacting BCI will be one necessary prong. Complaints up the chain of command after an unnecessary or improper police encounter takes place will be another necessary prong. A lawsuit or two, or at least winning on any charges brought, with Lund-like rulings may come into play. Eliminating DoC as a blunt hammer to use against OC will help here. And personal education of the officers making the stops and their superiors may play a role. We may ultimately need to look at legislation with personal penalties for cops who make unnecessary stops. But don't underestimate how very difficult such legislation will be to pass, especially if officers can show up with a litany of horror stories of OCers being jerks.
In virtually everyone of these efforts, civility and some level of cooperation will most likely be more effective than confrontation or doing absolutely nothing more than the law requires.
DaKnife said:
Nobody has said anything about being rude or confrontational to police if stopped.
I'm afraid you posted too soon. To whit:
rpyne said:
Your papers please!
Sorry, surrendering your rights does not protect your rights.
I'm sorry, but comparing police officers on the street doing their job, in a non-violent manner, as it has been explained to them, to Nazi Gestapo or Communist Secret Police demonstrates an attitude of incivility and confrontation. And with all due respect, I think it shows a certain lack of tactical and strategic forethought.
There are certainly situations where refusing ID or to answer any questions is the proper way to protect rights, protest unlawful actions, and educate officers. I believe those situations are when there are not other issues in play. If a person is stopped for no reason at all such as a "check point" or a "stop and frisk" then such a response is likely warranted and appropriate.
However, our Rights to own arms and carry them in public are not yet so well recognized in code or court rulings that thoughtful men can reasonably expect the visible presence of a firearm to be completely irrelevant to how police conduct themselves. I believe if a gun is present, the most important issue is whether the gun itself gives cause to make a stop. And I think the surest way to keep the focus there, rather than on something else including something that may be trumped up if we are needlessly confrontational or rude or non-cooperative in such cases, is to cooperate on the less important issues.
The fact is, I have a permit. So I'm allowed to OC a fully loaded gun in a school zone if I want to. Rather than arguing about whether I have a permit or whether the officer has any RAS to even make the initial contact or whether I'm over 18 or not a prohibited person, or exactly how close the nearest school is, etc ad nasium, it takes me 5 seconds to hand over a permit, smile, and remove all doubt about those ancillary questions. In doing so, I also remove virtually all reasonable and possible question about whether I'm under the influence of alcohol or other drugs, whether I'm likely to be agitated or otherwise actually pose any danger to civil society, and so on. I now get to focus on the immediate issue which is relevant laws about how I, a verified permit holder, am carrying my gun. I get to almost immediately shift the entire focus of the exchange away from crap that I care a lot less about and zero it in on the one issue that I want to resolve: does my OC'd firearm violate any laws? And I contend my process leads to better results, faster, than does taking the route suggested by rpyne.
Maybe I'm just getting the "old, fat, bald, decently dressed white guy" benefit-of-the-doubt. But in the last 10 years I've had only a couple of encounters with cops relative to my firearm. Two are not at all relevant to the subject at hand. In the other case, a couple of Sandy City officers approached me as I was OCing on the midway during the Independence Day celebrations. I produced my permit. They told me I needed to conceal and I politely, but firmly explained that I did not, it was perfectly legal for me to OC. They said I might get stopped a lot more if people were concerned and summoned police and I explained that was not really a problem. They left a little perplexed and a few moments later their sergeant approached me. I had my permit out before he even got close enough to ask. He said, "I know you have a permit, put it away and come talk." He again asserted I needed to conceal and I again explained I didn't. After a moment or two of this I politely said, "I'm happy to discuss this with your lieutenant or captain if you'd prefer. I can show you and them the relevant code sections and clear this up." Well what could he say or do to a guy who was polite and pleasant cooperative on everything except covering up my gun?
We walked over to the Sandy City "mobile command post" where the Lt apologized that it was a brand new vehicle and not yet fully stocked and so they didn't have a code book in it yet, and would I mind terribly waiting while one of their men ran up to the station to grab a code book we could look at. An air conditioned RV was not a terrible place to spend a few minutes on July 4th while my wife watched the kids playing on the rides, so no skin off my nose. But they had a computer and I offered to just look up the code online. I did so, we read it over, and after a few minutes, the Lt and Sergeant are scratching their heads and basically coming to the conclusion that I might just be right and maybe they needed to revamp their department training. About this time, more pressing matters came up for them, I asked if they were finished with me, and I was excused. I was never disarmed through any of this encounter. And in the years since, I've never been bothered while OCing at Sandy's Independence Day celebrations. Maybe nobody has noticed me OCing since then. Or maybe they've changed their training, or just recognize me and realize I'm not a problem.
Maybe others are still being hassled by Sandy PD. Or maybe I made a bit of a positive difference for everyone who legally OCs in Sandy City. In any event, I had the chance to spend 30 minutes educating a police Sergeant and a Lt and several other officers on the laws governing possession of a firearm. In addition, I believe I left a very positive impression of private gun owners and OCers. And I did it without spending months or years waging a lawsuit and having all the stress associated therewith. I didn't get myself labeled a "troublemaker" who can expect to never get a break in the future.
Now, there is a time for lawsuits. There is a time to fully assert every right you have. There are even times when being a jerk is entirely necessary and appropriate. And when those times come, we need to do what we need to do.
But at other times, we might give a little more thought to how to really achieve our end goals the best. Anyone looking for a silver bullet or other quick fix to the issue of cops approaching OCers just because they are OCing hasn't been paying attention the last 30 years, or even the last 4. Slow, steady, incremental improvement brings sure results with minimal risks.
Multi-pronged efforts, with patience, while smiling and being civil whenever and to the greatest extent possible.
DaKnife said:
So yes cooperate if so stopped. Then file a complaint after the fact. But Snaggle is right in that such policy is not correct and should be protested at such a venue as it was. And requiring someone to prove CFP holder or Loaded/unloaded is not legal since it requires RAS for a terry stop as such questions require the individual to violate their 5th amendment rights.
No disagreement. But as rpyne's post demonstrates, when this topic comes up, it is not going to be off topic to remind us that civility and cooperation, even above and beyond what may be legally required, might just be the best course to follow in certain circumstances.
Others are free to disagree with me on this. But I think my experience and results speak for themselves. While others seem to be magnets for police scrutiny, I somehow manage to OC whenever I like and rarely get any attention at all, and when I do, it tends to be positive rather than negative. That could change tomorrow, of course. There is always the chance that the next cop who sees me OCing is going to be a jerk. But even then, as the Good Book counsels,"A soft answers turns away wrath."
To each their own.
And with the session ending tonight, a few good folks will have some additional time to contact BCI and make inquires and lodge concerns/complaints about this issue.
Charles