Is there RAS for a Terry Stop if OCing AR style rifle?

Discuss issues regarding open carry.

Is there RAS for a Terry Stop if OCing AR style rifle?

Postby one4freedom » Sat 02 Mar 2013 2:16 pm

I was at my buddy's house last night eating delicious smoked brisket. :thumbup:

We started talking about guns in general and then he made a comment about the guy that was OCing the AR at the mall. He made the comment that as an officer he would have RAS for a Terry Stop if someone is carrying an AR type weapon out and about. When I asked him what crime the person would be suspected of committing, he said there would be reasonable suspicion that the AR could be full auto, since that is what the police are sometimes issued. That didn't make any sense to me, since as far as I can remember there isn't any prohibition to carrying a full-auto rifle as long as you can legally possess it, so I can't see a crime there anyway. When I questioned the legality of this policy he said it is a state-wide policy.

Thoughts?
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Re: Is there RAS for a Terry Stop if OCing AR style rifle?

Postby MarshallDodge » Sat 02 Mar 2013 2:45 pm

What if I were open carrying my Winchester 94 in 45 Colt. What silly excuse would he have then?
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Re: Is there RAS for a Terry Stop if OCing AR style rifle?

Postby JoeSparky » Sat 02 Mar 2013 3:34 pm

Personally, the OPEN CARRY of ANY firearm ABSENT other Threatening type behavior is the EXERCISE of a Right which the Supreme Court has stated can never be construed to be a crime!
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Re: Is there RAS for a Terry Stop if OCing AR style rifle?

Postby SpringfieldGuy » Sat 02 Mar 2013 10:13 pm

Any officer can do a level one stop that requires no resonable suspision or anything else. He can simply contact you and start a conversation. If you reply, we can ask any questions he wants. Of course, you can also leave at any time and not answer any questions.
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Re: Is there RAS for a Terry Stop if OCing AR style rifle?

Postby DiscoLives4ever » Sun 03 Mar 2013 10:53 am

I COULD have illegal modofocations to my car. Is that RAS?
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Re: Is there RAS for a Terry Stop if OCing AR style rifle?

Postby Maniakmedic » Sun 03 Mar 2013 6:17 pm

My pants and jackets all have pockets. So I guess that gives reasonable suspicion I may have any manner of illegal substances on me.
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Re: Is there RAS for a Terry Stop if OCing AR style rifle?

Postby dewittdj » Sun 03 Mar 2013 6:56 pm

IANALEO ( I am not an LEO) but I can see both sides of the issue.

It's not common place for individuals to OC an AR style rifle. The average person is not OC'ing an AR style rifle. I would prefer that, until it is common place, that an LEO would approach and politely engage any individual OC'ing an AR style rifle. It tends to be a good learning experience for both parties.

If you choose to open carry you have to realize and be prepared for requests for information from LEO's. Some will be well informed and knowledgeable about the law and some will be simply Opinion Enforcers, very ignorant of the Utah Gun Laws. It's a fact of life that won't change just because you don't like it. That said, you can refuse to answer questions or refuse to engage the officer in conversation, but in some cases, it won't go well for you. Leaving an encounter with the officer feeling that he/she has had a positive encounter goes a long way to helping the OC movement in general. Escalating and/or leaving the encounter after a hostile exchange will not do the OC movement nor, possibly yourself, any good.

The more positive experiences that LEO's have with the CC or OC crowd in general, the better off everyone will be. You should be aware that OC'ing an AR style rifle is not going to increase the speed by which you accomplish your chores or errands that day.

Right or wrong, it is simply a fact in today's present society. Make it an effort to improve the public's perception of your favorite method of carrying. You're not doing yourself any favors by doing just the opposite.
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Re: Is there RAS for a Terry Stop if OCing AR style rifle?

Postby quychang » Sun 03 Mar 2013 7:31 pm

I happen to agree with Dewitt on this one. While I do see the infringement of rights issue, I think a friendly conversation concerning the firearm is in order in a lot of public situations. I hope to God if I'm ever open carrying a long gun into a mall or school, that someone would at least question it. If I'm strapping one on my ATV or my back, prior to riding the ATV, then leave me alone, it's obvious I'm going shooting. If there's a possibility that I'm entering a public place with the same intent, please stop me and ask me about it.

If open carry of long guns, be they scary black guns or not, becomes the norm, then fine. Don't harass me unless you have RAS. With the current climate, I'll be friendly and cooperative. I'm rarely in too much of a hurry to talk guns with someone, be it a private citizen or a LEO.

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Re: Is there RAS for a Terry Stop if OCing AR style rifle?

Postby gravedancer » Sun 03 Mar 2013 8:25 pm

quychang wrote:I happen to agree with Dewitt on this one. While I do see the infringement of rights issue, I think a friendly conversation concerning the firearm is in order in a lot of public situations. I hope to God if I'm ever open carrying a long gun into a mall or school, that someone would at least question it. If I'm strapping one on my ATV or my back, prior to riding the ATV, then leave me alone, it's obvious I'm going shooting. If there's a possibility that I'm entering a public place with the same intent, please stop me and ask me about it.

If open carry of long guns, be they scary black guns or not, becomes the norm, then fine. Don't harass me unless you have RAS. With the current climate, I'll be friendly and cooperative. I'm rarely in too much of a hurry to talk guns with someone, be it a private citizen or a LEO.

Mel


:agree:

I know it wont be a popular opinion around here, but if I were an LEO, and I saw someone heading into a mall with an AR strapped on his back, I would at least stop him for a quick chat to put out "feelers" to get a gauge for the guys intent and frame of mind. The problem with "reasonable articulable suspicion" is that the common definition of "reasonable" roughly coincides with "what an average person would believe to be true". Thats how they get away with subjective laws or definitions. I think its safe to say that an average person in todays climate would not think it normal or even OK to oc a long rifle into a mall, regardless of whether the majority of people on this forum think it would be OK or not. Thats one reason why its important to get laws passed that clarify that the lawful carry of a weapon is not in and of itself RAS. Then you remove the subjective element.
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Re: Is there RAS for a Terry Stop if OCing AR style rifle?

Postby JoeSparky » Sun 03 Mar 2013 10:34 pm

gravedancer wrote:
quychang wrote:I happen to agree with Dewitt on this one. While I do see the infringement of rights issue, I think a friendly conversation concerning the firearm is in order in a lot of public situations. I hope to God if I'm ever open carrying a long gun into a mall or school, that someone would at least question it. If I'm strapping one on my ATV or my back, prior to riding the ATV, then leave me alone, it's obvious I'm going shooting. If there's a possibility that I'm entering a public place with the same intent, please stop me and ask me about it.

If open carry of long guns, be they scary black guns or not, becomes the norm, then fine. Don't harass me unless you have RAS. With the current climate, I'll be friendly and cooperative. I'm rarely in too much of a hurry to talk guns with someone, be it a private citizen or a LEO.

Mel


:agree:

I know it wont be a popular opinion around here, but if I were an LEO, and I saw someone heading into a mall with an AR strapped on his back, I would at least stop him for a quick chat to put out "feelers" to get a gauge for the guys intent and frame of mind. The problem with "reasonable articulable suspicion" is that the common definition of "reasonable" roughly coincides with "what an average person would believe to be true". Thats how they get away with subjective laws or definitions. I think its safe to say that an average person in todays climate would not think it normal or even OK to oc a long rifle into a mall, regardless of whether the majority of people on this forum think it would be OK or not. Thats one reason why its important to get laws passed that clarify that the lawful carry of a weapon is not in and of itself RAS. Then you remove the subjective element.



And I have no problem with the "level one stop" as referred to by Springfield guy or as understood by me to be a "consensual encounter" as long as upon my refusal to participate it is recognized and I am able to proceed on my way without any impediment.

Also, a few years ago, here in Utah there were SEVERAL incidents of OCer"s being proned out and/or arrested and charged with such things as Disorderly Conduct simply for OC'ing a firearm. I see us in the very early stages of a long gun carry phenomenon. I personally don't have a desire to routinely OC a rifle or shotgun..... I see those who do ascent other behavior to simply be exercising their 2nd amendment rights.
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Re: Is there RAS for a Terry Stop if OCing AR style rifle?

Postby Sam Fidler » Mon 04 Mar 2013 8:58 am

"Reasonable" is applied to the suspicion of a crime and not to what an average person would do. I would also want to question someone carrying an evil black rifle into a place where it is not normal to see them but just to gauge their mental status. If nothing leads me to believe that he intends to commit a crime with that EBR then there is no justification for detainment, further questioning, or searches.
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Re: Is there RAS for a Terry Stop if OCing AR style rifle?

Postby BLKWJ » Mon 04 Mar 2013 10:40 am

Generally speaking no, there isn't RAS for OCing an AR. No crime is being committed. Can the officer come up and ask you questions? Sure. An officer can walk up and as anybody anything at anytime for any reason. Doesn't me we have to answer or provide any ID. Would be no different then an average joe walking up to you and asking questions.
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Re: Is there RAS for a Terry Stop if OCing AR style rifle?

Postby one4freedom » Mon 04 Mar 2013 11:50 am

Thanks, for the replies. I also have no problem for a level 1 stop, but that's not what I'm talking about. I am talking about a detainment using the AR as RAS. Doesn't sit right with me at all.
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Re: Is there RAS for a Terry Stop if OCing AR style rifle?

Postby BLKWJ » Mon 04 Mar 2013 11:55 am

one4freedom wrote:Thanks, for the replies. I also have no problem for a level 1 stop, but that's not what I'm talking about. I am talking about a detainment using the AR as RAS. Doesn't sit right with me at all.


With that said, a LEO can and will use certain variables to develop RAS. Such as, time of day (not very normal for a person to walk around with 1 at 3 AM), demeanor, clothes you are wear (mask). But those are fairly obvious thing I do not think you were meaning in your original post.

If you were just walking down the street, or standing in line at a store they would not have RAS.
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Re: Is there RAS for a Terry Stop if OCing AR style rifle?

Postby DaKnife » Mon 04 Mar 2013 12:41 pm

Level 1 stop, no problem. Terry stop would be as it does require RAS. And Lund V SLC stated that simply carrying without evidence of any other criminal act is not RAS.
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