Dry fire vs. live fire

[MarshallDodge]

I didn't want to derail the Glock thread so I figured a new thread would be in order.

But then you have to feed the 10mm... That gets pretty expensive if you don't reload.

I mitigate this by only doing about 20% of my drills live fire. Dry fire practice is your friend, do it diligently and your range time becomes less important. Then take the savings from less range time and take as many formal training classes as you can, use your ammo there. That's what works for me anyway, YMMV.

Those of you that have a dry/live fire ratio of 80/20, how do you measure your shooting improvement? Do you base it on time? Accuracy? What kind of drills do you run to get these measurements?

[Hawk87]

I will post my response here, so as not to derail the other thread.

While I agree that dry fire is critical, I think that it should be supplementary to live fire. There are critical skills that you can't learn from dry fire, like recoil management. Some of these can be mitigated to a degree by getting a trainer like the SIRT training pistol, but by no means should it replace live fire.

[FrankenHollow]

I agree. I don't use dry-fire as a substitute for live fire. It's a training aid, and it does help build (some) muscle memory. But, that's about it. There is no replacement for recoil recovery, target re-acquisition, and seeing holes show up in the target.

Most of my dry-fire practice is done to avoid bad habits. If I go very long without putting very many rounds through my handguns, I find myself yanking the trigger, anticipating recoil (dropping the barrel, as the trigger breaks), and making minor mistakes during grip adjustment. Dry-fire practice helps prevent that, builds muscle memory for the trigger pull, and lets me do something constructive when I'm bored at 4 am. But, I don't consider it to be a replacement for any amount of live-fire.

[Jesse 8]

Recoil has never bothered me much. Focusing on the fundamentals of marksmanship rectifies any accuracy problems. I have had my Glock since late December 2011. I've only run MAYBE 750 rounds thru it since then. But I've taken 2 classes with it, and a third to come. Getting half dollar 5 shot groups at 3 yards is within my skillset. I still need to work on adding distance.

Basically, I don't much see the value at most Ranges. Load, stand, aim, deliver. Easy. Sure I could increase my accuracy some by adding more live fire trigger time. But that isn't my focus. Trigger control is. That is going to pull my shots off target more than anything (especially while point shooting). Learning trigger manipulation and reset is what dry practice is all about. At the same time work on your draw. Move, draw, present, press. Sight picture? Sure, sometimes. Work on keeping that front sight still.

What you can gain from live fire is increased secondary shot speed. But everything up to and including the first shot can be done, repeatedly, dry. Same with reloads and after action reports. So why go to the range? To work on mag dumps. But wait, only one round per second. This is why I limit my live fire time, unless I'm on my families' property, the range has little to offer me.

But, if I could go to the property all the time, maybe an argument could be made for 30%. In the end, I would rather shoot less, and be under expert instruction more often, than shoot more and maybe increase my double tap time and tighten up my groups an inch. YMMV,this is just what works for me right now.

[Jesse 8]

To answer your questions, I judge improvement by decreasing the time it takes to get my first shot on target. At different ranges, while moving. How? Wait, have someone yell gun, turn/move (get off the x) draw, fire, 1 maybe 3 rounds, reload, fire maybe 2 more, after action report. Repeat. That's my basic drill for now when I'm at the property. Focus on HITS, like your Sig. says. Even if it costs me time, I must hit my target. Running this drill faster and more accurately is my whole goal. More training helps, as does more dry practice (especially with the reloads!). More range time? Yet to be determined if that's useful.

ETA: one thing I will give props for at this level in my development, range time (stand and deliver) will help me when shooting off hand. I will be faster and more accurate after every session I expect, until I get used to shooting left-handed (last training class showed me how akward I feel while shooting leftie) And I plan to incorporate more weak hand shooting next time I go to the range.

[UtahCFP]

I'm in the 80/20 camp -- dry practice a lot more than live fire. Most of the mechanics you are working on -- acquiring grip in holster, draw from holster (trigger finger straight!), rotating firearm on to target (trigger finger straight!), wrist/arm motions (trigger finger straight!), push/pull foundation at extension (trigger finger straight!), sight acquisition (trigger finger straight!), trigger press, doing all this stuff while moving -- don't require a bang.

Thing is, I'm kinda lazy so I don't dry practice as much as I should. Realistically, I probably shoot live more than I do dry.

[FrankenHollow]

Jesse 8 - If you view your local range as such a limitation, why do you even go?

Why not head out to some place where you can perform rapid fire drills; where you don't have distractions; where your reload drills include live fire and use loaded magazines with an accurate weight?

[Jesse 8]

That's called the family property bro! Problem is it's 3 hrs away. I get that you're taking about Utah lake area. 1. The drive even to there is annoying, dougs is like 5 minutes from my house, ok maybe 8. 2. I literally have never been to the shooting area out there, no people I know shoot there. And again, I just don't see that much justification in round count. It's expensive. No matter your caliber choice. Rapid fire burns ammo.

Right now, to me, I can get most of what I need from a LOT of dry practice, solidified and confirmed with minimal range time. I'm still a new handgun shooter, even tho I've been around them forever. So handling, drawstroak, movement, equal trigger press to the rear etc. Still need work. I still gain MUCH from basic and mid level classes. Maybe once I have a few years of this (remember, I've only been carrying since October) I will see the need and value for 4k rounds a year. That time simply isn't now.

Yes, I like getting out and running my own drills live fire, but taking classes is number one, followed by dry runs, THEN live work on my own. Just why I do what I do right now. Subject to change sometime in the future I'm sure. Do what works for you, stay safe, be dangerous.

[sarahbn]

There's some great places to shoot out Tooele way. I know all you SLC "snobs" think it's waaaaaaaay out in the boonies but it's only about 35 minutes from downtown, as opposed to three hours. Come shooting with me sometime.

[FrankenHollow]

Understandable, Jesse.

But... there are places other than the west side of Utah Lake. You have to drive a little further, but not much (or, the opposite direction). Just avoid the high traffic areas, or you'll become one of 'them' by association.

(Yes, this is tying in to the OP, I swear.)

My "normal" shooting spot used to be a range my family got permission to create on BLM land in Tooele County, about 17 years ago. We had written permission from the local office to clear 3 marked trees, remove some vegetation on the backstop, and create a "jeep trail" road. It was great, ...for a while. But, of course, idiots, anal orifices, ATV riders, and inconsiderate jerks dumped too much trash and got too destructive and irresponsible there. Did I mention someone shot down about 30 trees, piled them on 20+ tires they were dumping, and lit a bonfire with 30+ foot flames in 2003? Yea...

Now, we use a "'range for the day" tactic, rather than creating something recognizable for other people to come back to. It's about a 50-60 mile drive for me to get to what I consider an acceptable shooting area, but that includes 2-5 miles of off-road driving to get away from even the slightest hint of people. Pretty much any public land after Five Mile Pass on Hwy 73, or west of Hwy 36 is fair game. (excluding areas closed to shooting, or lacking a proper backstop and ricochet safety zone, of course)

Going shooting, for me, just means I need to plan for a 100-120 mile round trip, and the corresponding amount of time. But, I make up for it by reloading and casting my own bullets.
For example: My current cost to reload a 50-round box of 9mm with my cast 122 gr bullets is less than $2.70. (and I buy metals for the alloy, rather than scrounging like many casters.) So, for the price most people pay for a single box of "cheap" 9mm ammo ($11-15), I can shoot 4 to 5 boxes. That allows for a substantial increase in live-fire practice, and/or helps cover the cost of fuel to get there.

In addition, I don't have to deal with the limitations placed on me by being at a range. I'm not limited to a single target (nearly all indoor and many outdoor ranges). I'm not limited to slow fire. I'm not getting smacked in the face by brass ricocheting off the lane divider (indoor). I don't have to wait to check my target. I don't have to deal with crappy lighting, ridiculously poor ventilation, and malfunctioning target carriers (probably not a problem at Doug's - but I've never used their range). I don't have to wait for a lane/bench to open up. I don't have to deal with some idiot hitting me with brass from his AR. I don't have to deal with idiots shooting the roof or support beams. I can practice drawing from a holster. I don't have to worry about people stealing my brass. And, most importantly, I don't have to worry about the idiot in the stall next to me sending a bullet in my direction, because they thought a 'jam' was a perfectly good excuse to disregard all safety rules.

So, I am afforded the opportunity to practice nearly anything I can think of, in the desert. Generally, it includes the use of cheap, bulk potatoes. Potatoes make a great handgun target: They're bio-degradable. They explode (uh-oh... might be banned! ). They're small enough to require concentration to hit. And, they can be left 'in the raw', or painted (various colors, for certain drills). -Painted potatoes are great for transition drills and target acquisition drills (especially when using multiple colors, and having another person call out the next target).

So, I believe a majority of live-fire provides much more valuable training, than relying on a majority of dry-fire.
But, I do understand your position. We just have different approaches.

Sorry about the long post...

[Jesse 8]

It happens sometimes. That's a good plan, and if I could shoot 50 rounds for 2-7 dollars I'd shoot more too. Another problem, I'd have to borrow a truck because I don't own one yet! my mustang wouldn't do too well on that path I bet lol

Sarah, I'm out in Tooele usually at least once a week, where can you shoot out there?

[bltdonahue]

I didn't want to derail the Glock thread so I figured a new thread would be in order.

But then you have to feed the 10mm... That gets pretty expensive if you don't reload.

I mitigate this by only doing about 20% of my drills live fire. Dry fire practice is your friend, do it diligently and your range time becomes less important. Then take the savings from less range time and take as many formal training classes as you can, use your ammo there. That's what works for me anyway, YMMV.

Those of you that have a dry/live fire ratio of 80/20, how do you measure your shooting improvement? Do you base it on time? Accuracy? What kind of drills do you run to get these measurements?

I measure how much money I'm not hemorrhaging in paying for ammo

And for me, dry-firing is mostly a weapon-manipulation drill...though years ago I used it as an accuracy improvement tool with measurable results (i.e. shooting a 220, then shooting a 280 ish).

[sarahbn]

Sarah, I'm out in Tooele usually at least once a week, where can you shoot out there?

South of Tooele and Stockton there's a place you can go, and there's another in Grantsville out past the Wal-Mart Distribution Center, and then there's Stansbury Island. Those are the ones I know about, I'm kinda new to shooting and I'm pretty sure there are others.