Seriously, Another Fire?

[UtahCFP]

Watch for smoke, stomp it out. That simple. Come on folks. And no exploding targets in dry brush, duh!

Shooting rifle at 100 yards -- by the time you see smoke, you've got a three-foot high fire started and you aren't going to be able to do a darn thing about it except call 9-1-1 and let them know where to send the first responders.

As for the "dump fire" - heard in one news report (standard disclaimer about reliability of early news reports goes here) that it was the shooters who called 9-1-1. No charges had been filed as of yesterday, though BLM is saying now illegal to shoot on their land (didn't say where or how long restrictions would be in place).

Any of the popular shooting places have bits of things on the ground that people have thought would be fun to shoot. Doesn't take steel or steel core bullets if you already have something that will spark when hit with something else. The bullet can make two other things collide and spark.

-- written from the Fairfield Inn where my wife and I are staying until we can return to our home after the mandatory evacuation order is lifted --

[DaKnife]

After reading UtahCFP's last post I went looking and can't find anything about any BLM ban on shooting. Not on their website or on the media sites I checked.

[divegeek]

In some of the discussions we've had on the topics of fires, people have claimed that bullets cannot normally start fires, because lead and copper are too soft and won't spark. I didn't know, so I did some research this morning, and based on an hour with Google, here are the ways, as I understand it, that a bullet can start a fire:

• Bullet temperature. In some cases the bullet itself may be hot enough to provide the heat (about 450F) needed to start dry grass on fire. It depends mostly on the type of gun. Bullets are heated some by the hot gases, but mostly by friction from the barrel, so high-velocity rifles create the most risk. A round from an AR-15 carbine has been measured at 513F, which is plenty hot to start a fire. A model of cooling shows that bullet temperature drops moderately quickly, but that it's still dangerously hot out to about 150m, which is probably further than most people are shooting. This is with a carbine barrel; a longer barrel would probably result in a hotter bullet. Pistol bullets should be considerably cooler, it seems very likely they could not be hot enough to start a fire. More data would be really helpful.
• Collision-heated bullets. A bullet which is too cool in flight to start a fire might still become dangerous when it strikes a hard object. The rapid deformation of the bullet will cause it to heat, very quickly and in unpredictable amounts. What is certain is that the bullet contains plenty of kinetic energy, so if some of that energy is transformed into heat it can definitely get hot.
• Sparks. Copper and lead cannot spark off of any substance, so direct sparking with traditional ammunition isn't possible. Steel can spark off of all sorts of things, so steel-jacketed ammunition is very dangerous. Copper and lead bullets can cause indirect sparks, though, if they strike a piece of steel which is then knocked into a hard rock or another piece of steel.
• Tracers. Duh, they're on fire.
• Reactive targets. It's not clear, but I'd assume they can start fires. I don't know if something like a Star Target could actually cause a fire; they seem to be mostly concussion and little heat, so they might actually tend to put out fires. But I wouldn't care to depend on that. Shooting at propane is clearly very dangerous -- however the ignition temperature of propane is over 800F, which is why people who are shooting propane to make it explode always set a small fire near the tank. Otherwise what happens is boring.

[divegeek]

Another interesting tidbit which should be kept in mind, is that there have been 229 human-caused fires in Utah so far, making the 20 shooter-caused fires less than 10%. The biggest culprit is campfires. That doesn't let shooters off the hook, but it does put the problem in perspective.

Source: http://www.utahfireinfo.gov/fire_inform ... fires.html (you have to add up the per-agency numbers yourself, since the Grand Total is wrong).

[FrankenHollow]

After reading UtahCFP's last post I went looking and can't find anything about any BLM ban on shooting. Not on their website or on the media sites I checked.

I've seen several articles that claim BLM has temporarily banned "steel ammunition" on all of their Utah lands. I've even seen 2 reports that BLM has close ALL Utah lands to ALL shooting. However....
It isn't like BLM to be that ambiguous, with a crappy description like "steel ammunition". They're usually quite precise in what is prohibited.
In addition, I can't find anything on their website, either. The only recent (somewhat applicable) posting is about the updated Washington County fire restrictions, but it doesn't list anything but the standards: incendiary ammo, tracers, etc.

There have been no Regulation changes. The Target Shooting Closure Map has not been updated. Its web page has not been updated. The Target Shooting page has not been updated. The Target Shooting Guidelines page still only says not to use tracers or incendiary ammo, and says not to shoot rocks or steel targets to avoid fires (shooting rocks is illegal, by the way... if you didn't know).
(All of the above refer to pages for the Salt Lake BLM office, but none of the other offices have updated their pages, either.)

And... the latest State-wide Fire Restriction notice doesn't restrict ammunition or shooting in any way.

So, I'm going with the overall conclusion that:
BLM hasn't done anything, but they might; because everyone thinks the prohibition order has already been issued.

[DaKnife]

Or, the BLM hasn't done anything, and isn't likely to do anything. At most they will let the rumored closures keep the number of shooters down.

But also since much of the popular west lake shooting area has been burned, there really is no further need to ban anything. Heck, Saratoga Springs ought to open up all fireworks, camp fires and the like, now that the mountain has been cleared of fuel (j/k of course).

[UtahJarhead]

Reactive targets most definitely can start fires. They're extremely exothermic in nature.

[divegeek]

Reactive targets most definitely can start fires. They're extremely exothermic in nature.

OTOH, dynamite is often used to extinguish fires.

[bltdonahue]

Reactive targets most definitely can start fires. They're extremely exothermic in nature.

OTOH, dynamite is often used to extinguish fires.

There's temperature, and then there's heat transfer. A candle is hotter than a clothes iron, but you can run your fingers through a candle's flame no problem, but can't touch an iron without burning yourself.

In any case, we're in some extraordinarily bad fire conditions. Extended high temperatures, extremely low humidity, and moderately heavy vegetation.

The real problem will be the Utah open artillery season that runs the week before July 4th through the week after "Days of 47"

[Daeyel]

I hear you. I'm gonna be REAL anal about anyone shooting off fireworks east of 900 E in Provo, which has been banned for 10 years. Idiots still fire them off though. My parents house is in the area, and I don't need the stress of a fire.

[DiscoLives4ever]

Another interesting tidbit which should be kept in mind, is that there have been 229 human-caused fires in Utah so far, making the 20 shooter-caused fires less than 10%. The biggest culprit is campfires. That doesn't let shooters off the hook, but it does put the problem in perspective.

Source: http://www.utahfireinfo.gov/fire_inform ... fires.html (you have to add up the per-agency numbers yourself, since the Grand Total is wrong).

Interesting, the number Gov. Herbert and the news kept throwing out was 400 wildfires this year with 380 caused by humans.