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LDS Visitors Centers

4K views 8 replies 6 participants last post by  Uinta Firearms 
#1 ·
Anyone know if it is alright to carry in an LDS Visitors Center? I will be traveling to Independence, MO next month and we will be going through a visitors center while there. I know we cannot carry in churches, but I suspect visitors centers should be alright. Anyone with the heads-up would be great.
 
#3 ·
Utah CCW/firearms laws are not relevant in other states. The ability to legally carry in LDS Visitors Centers in Utah due to Utah laws does not carry through to other states. As Snurd points out, it is imperative that you familiarize yourself with, in your case, Missouri laws because those are the laws that you must comply with while in Missouri. Missouri is much more restrictive than Utah about where a permit holder may carry. This site, http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/missouri.pdf summarizes Missouri CCW laws and contains links to official State of Missouri firearms sites.
 
#4 ·
As Snurd and CarKnocker have pointed out, the moment we step foot into another State, that State's laws now control the possession (and use) of firearms. That another State chooses to recognize our permits does not have any bearing on other aspects of their State gun laws.

Also, in areas such as this, one is often required to dig into two levels of code. For example, a quick web search reveals that Missouri recognizes a Utah permit.

Another search reveals Missouri code 571.107. 1 that defines a bunch of off limit locations. Among these are:

Any church or other place of religious worship without the consent of the minister or person or persons representing the religious organization that exercises control over the place of religious worship. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises;
There are many other (17 total paragraphs in that section of code) off limit locations including any private property posted as off limits. Get familiar if you plan to carry. It is your life, liberty, and fortune at risk if you mess up and commit a gun law violation. Ask that gal from Pennsylvania about making an honest, peaceful, unintentional mistake and carrying an otherwise legal gun into an off-limit location (in her case, the entire State of New Jersey).

What I haven't done is go digging to determine whether by statutory or definition, or by judicial ruling or other construct, a religiously operated "visitor center" is a "church or other place of religious worship."

As some examples, the Community of Christ's (formerly RLDS) temple in Missouri is open to the public and might be considered a "visitor center." But I'm pretty sure it is used for religious worship. My gut would tell me that the various LDS visitor centers are not going to be considered "churches" or "other place of religious worship." I wouldn't bet my own liberty on my gut and you certainly should not. Some phone calls are in order to the Missouri State AG, State police, or other agency that might be able to provide some guidance.

Would that the feds would enforce some minimum standard of protection of our 2nd amendment rights as is their duty under the 14th amendment. I'd want States to be able to be more permissive than that federal standard. But some bare minimum standard of protection should be valid across the nation, into territories, and anywhere else Old Glory flies. But until that happens, we are on our own to know the laws that govern our possession and use of a firearm every time we cross a line on a map. In Utah, at least, we have State preemption so we don't worry about city or county lines. In some other States, they have to worry about that.

Charles
 
#6 ·
Car Knocker said:
Utah CCW/firearms laws are not relevant in other states. The ability to legally carry in LDS Visitors Centers in Utah due to Utah laws does not carry through to other states. As Snurd points out, it is imperative that you familiarize yourself with, in your case, Missouri laws because those are the laws that you must comply with while in Missouri. Missouri is much more restrictive than Utah about where a permit holder may carry. This site, http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/missouri.pdf summarizes Missouri CCW laws and contains links to official State of Missouri firearms sites.
Carnocker, I attempted to go to this web-site but it does not seem to be working. It said something about stealing bandwidth and there were no links that I could access. Are there any other web-sites that might provide info as to other states gun laws that you are aware of?
 
#7 ·
Car Knocker said:
Utah CCW/firearms laws are not relevant in other states.
You'd think that is actually the case, and I did too, until Illinois adopted its concealed carry law. We have to be careful about this belief. For example, Illinois statute 430 ILCS 66/40 says that only residents from states with "substantially similar laws" can obtain their nonresident concealed firearm license. Sadly, Utah does not meet Illinois definition of "substantially similar", however Virginia, New Mexico, South Carolina, and Hawaii have been declared as having substantially similar laws. The point is, be careful and be sure you know what the statute actually says.

"The truth of the matter is that you always know the right thing to do. The hard part is doing it." -Norman Schwarzkopf
 
#8 ·
Uinta Firearms said:
Car Knocker said:
Utah CCW/firearms laws are not relevant in other states.
You'd think that is actually the case, and I did too, until Illinois adopted its concealed carry law. We have to be careful about this belief. For example, Illinois statute 430 ILCS 66/40 says that only residents from states with "substantially similar laws" can obtain their nonresident concealed firearm license. Sadly, Utah does not meet Illinois definition of "substantially similar", however Virginia, New Mexico, South Carolina, and Hawaii have been declared as having substantially similar laws. The point is, be careful and be sure you know what the statute actually says.

"The truth of the matter is that you always know the right thing to do. The hard part is doing it." -Norman Schwarzkopf
He wasn't talking about non resident permits. And while some states may have similar or the same laws here and there, most laws are different. So laws that apply in Utah usually won't apply somewhere else. So we need to know what the other state law says if we are to carry there.

For example, Utah law says that you can't carry on school property without a CFP. Federal law also says you can't be within 1000 feet of a school zone without one from the state where the school resides (K-12 schools). However, in Idaho, even with a permit you cannot go on school property. So if I travel to Idaho, I need to know that I can't just go for a walk at a school.

So while other states may have some laws that are similar, or some that are the same, many will not be. Me have to know the law where we are going to travel.
 
#9 ·
If I'm understanding you correctly, essentially you and I are saying the same thing: check local laws. My mentioning of the Illinois law was not to discuss nonresident application for obtaining concealed carry licenses/permits, but to point out a little known fact. Some states are creating laws that hold nonresidents to a different standard than residents, and maybe I should have used Indiana, and the confusion surrounding their concealed carry laws, as an example.

The confusion surrounding Indiana's nonresident concealed carry laws is some interpretation that says a nonresident is subject to the laws of their home state while in Indiana. For example, New Jersey and New York have ammo capacity. Is that applicable in Indiana? Illinois doesn't permit open carry, whereas Indiana does. Is somebody with an Illinois permit not allowed to open carry in Illinois?

Again, I recommend reviewing the laws for where you're going. If you have questions call the authority that issues the permits in that state or contact the attorney general. Another helpful resource may be the app titled CCW by The Workman Group. They're really good about keeping it updated. They also make another app called Posted! which tells you places that are gun free zones.

"The truth of the matter is that you always know the right thing to do. The hard part is doing it." -Norman Schwarzkopf
 
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