Question on work policy

[wilky]

Hi i was at work when we were given ( then taken away) a update to our work policy includeing a ful page dedicated to the new firearm/weapons policy it said i have no right to carry a firarm or knife on any company propety or leave a firearm or knife/sword in my car/truck or i will be fired imediately even if we posess CFP ( according to my knowledge it is Ilegal to fire me for carrying and using my 2a )

I generally leave my gun in my safe in my truck when i am at work as i knew i cant carry at work.

My work does not have a private parking lot and uses a public parking, i belive it is wrong and possibly ileagal to enforce a company policy on public propety

When i confronted my boss about this he told me it is his policy and if i work for him i will obey at all time or i will be fired he then took my copy of the new policys.
as far as my understanding is it is only a misdemenour to carry on posted propety and my employment policy does not count when i am off the clock and on public propety and i cant be fired for leagally carrying



Sorry i am just wanting advise on what is legal so i know better
can anyone confirm to me if that my truck is technically a extenssion of my residence and in being so i can have a firearm in it

sorry i am finding it a little hard to explain everything in writing
Thanks

Wilky

[morcey2]

Utah is a right-to-work state and they can fire you without cause any time they want to. That said, utah law states that they can't forbid you from keeping a gun in your vehicle. I'll try to find the details. I also work at a place that bans firearms, but they have no way of enforcing it at this point.

I'll fill in more later. My I-pad typing sucks.

Matt

[DaKnife]

You won't win in regards to carrying at work. But a call to the AG's office has gotten many employers a friendly or not so friendly call to tell them that their "not in the parking lot" rules are illegal (especially when they don't control the lot). Otherwise Utah is a right to work state and they can fire you for nothing at all, let alone for such a reason as violating their no weapons at work rule.

Sorry there's not much we can say to help you, other than go ahead and store in your vehicle. He has no authority there. Don't challenge him on it though, because the only way you can defend against him firing you should he find out about your weapon in your vehicle, would be were he to actually state that was the reason he fired you. Similar rules are why I don't carry as a habit. Because I can't carry at work, or keep a weapon in my vehicle (military base = other rules). But at least I can carry a knife or three at all times.

[karatelyle]

Utah code title 34 chapter 45. You can look it up/ print it out at Utah.gov It is illegal for an employer to have a rule forbidding firearms in private vehicles. Even if it is not enforced. If you work for a big corporation I can guarantee someone in the company knows this law as it is found in the General Labor Code. As soon as you step out of your vehicle with your firearm you can be fired, but you can store it in your car while you work.
Look up and read the law so you can understand all the ins and outs.
But if you make a big stink about it they can find any
other reason to fire you so be careful.

If you notify the Ag about your company's policy they will inform them of this law. Also after the Ag contacts them if they still enforce their illegal policy you will be entitled to a greater settlement in a lawsuit. But you would have to pove this is why you were fired.

[karatelyle]

If he took these policies away from you after you asked about this then he may know about this law. You have a right to have copies of any policy that pertains to you as well as access to any info stored in your employee file. The employees Right to know Act. He may have taken the policies away from you to prevent you from showing others.
If my employer did this i would think about using a recording device if ever called into a private office where they might try to fire me. I can be fired for recording but it is not illegal. If fired i would have evidence as to why i was fired. I have seen several times where the reasons a person was told they were fired magicly changes once a judge gets involved.

[gravedancer]

Hi i was at work when we were given ( then taken away) a update to our work policy includeing a ful page dedicated to the new firearm/weapons policy it said i have no right to carry a firarm or knife on any company propety or leave a firearm or knife/sword in my car/truck or i will be fired imediately even if we posess CFP

They can fire you for carrying on company property, but recent law changes (it was HB 357 wasnt it ??) changed it to where they CANNOT prevent you from securing a firearm in your vehicle or take action against you for doing so, unless they provide alternate, secured storage for your firearm.

( according to my knowledge it is Ilegal to fire me for carrying and using my 2a )

Your knowledge is incorrect. They can fire you for anything they want (utah is an "at will" employment state anyway), including violating a company firearms policy, except where I noted above.

I generally leave my gun in my safe in my truck when i am at work as i knew i cant carry at work.

This is what I do as well, because my company also forbids weapons on company property. Ive also instructed my family to make sure to sue my employer if/when I end up getting killed at work because my employer creates a gun free victim zone depriving me of my right to defend myself.

My work does not have a private parking lot and uses a public parking, i belive it is wrong and possibly ileagal to enforce a company policy on public propety

As stated above, even if the parking WERE the companies property, they still cannot legally prevent you from securing your firearm in your vehicle unless they provide lockers or some other form of secured storage for your firearm.

When i confronted my boss about this he told me it is his policy and if i work for him i will obey at all time or i will be fired he then took my copy of the new policys.
as far as my understanding is it is only a misdemenour to carry on posted propety and my employment policy does not count when i am off the clock and on public propety and i cant be fired for leagally carrying

Well heres the thing... even though legally he cant fire you for locking your gun in your vehicle, in Utah he CAN legally fire you for no reason at all. If you make a big enough stink about it, chances are you will just get fired and not told a reason. And since im assuming you didnt record the previous conversation, you will have a hard time proving it was because of the illegal firearms policy.

IANAL but my advice would be to do one of the following:

A) Let sleeping dogs lie. In other words, just stop talking to anyone at work (especially your boss) about the policy, and discreetly continue to lock the firearm in your vehicle. If you ever get called into someones office to discuss the firearms policy, make sure you are recording the conversation even if its just on your cellphones camcorder app. This is totally legal in Utah even without the other persons knowledge or consent. Maybe they will be dumb enough to tell you again that you will be or are being fired because you keep a weapon in your vehicle.

B) If you insist on having a confrontation about it (unwise imo unless you dont really care about the job that much), then print out the relevant law (Ill include it below), and then with a voice recorder running in your pocket or otherwise out of sight, go in and talk to your boss again. Let him know that you are willing to comply with company policy and not carry your gun in the company building, but that you have discovered that utah law prohibits employers from preventing employees from storing their weapons in their vehicle, unless they provide secure alternate storage for you to use. Ask him if he intends to provide the secure alternate storage or seperate free parking as dictated by utah law, and if he says no, then inform him you will continue to lock your weapon up in a safe in your truck when you are on company property. You may very well get fired at this point, but at least if you do its on record that he fired you because of this policy, which opens the door for a relatively easy lawsuit later.

or C) the somewhat less confrontational way to resolve it might be to place a call to the utah attorney generals office, and let them know that your employer is enforcing a firearms policy that is in violation of utah code 34-45 sections 101-105 and that you have been threatened with termination unless you comply with the illegal policy. The AG's office should make a couple of calls to your employer, and you may find that in a few weeks there is suddenly a new "revised" policy announced that prohibits firearms in the building, but allows employees to store them securely in their vehicle.

34-45-101. Title. This Chapter is Known as "Protection of Activities in Private Vehicles."

34-45-102. Definitions. As used in this chapter:
(1) "Firearm" has the same meaning as provided in Section 76-10-501 .
(2) "Motor vehicle" has the same meaning as provided in Section 41-1a-102 .
(3) "Person" means an individual, property owner, landlord, tenant, employer, business entity, or other legal entity.

34-45-103. Protection of Certain Activities -- Firearms -- Free Exercise of Religion.
(1) Except as provided in Subsection (2), a person may not establish, maintain, or enforce any policy or rule that has the effect of:
(a) prohibiting any individual from transporting or storing a firearm in a motor vehicle on any property designated for motor vehicle parking, if:
(i) the individual is legally permitted to transport, possess, purchase, receive, transfer, or store the firearm;
(ii) the firearm is locked securely in the motor vehicle or in a locked container attached to the motor vehicle while the motor vehicle is not occupied; and
(iii) the firearm is not in plain view from the outside of the motor vehicle; or
(b) prohibiting any individual from possessing any item in or on a motor vehicle on any property designated for motor vehicle parking, if the effect of the policy or rule constitutes a substantial burden on that individual's free exercise of religion.
(2) A person may establish, maintain, or enforce a policy or rule that has the effect of placing limitations on or prohibiting an individual from transporting or storing a firearm in a motor vehicle on property the person has designated for motor vehicle parking if:
(a) the person provides, or there is otherwise available, one of the following, in a location reasonably proximate to the property the person has designated for motor vehicle parking:
(i) alternative parking for individuals who desire to transport, possess, receive, transfer, or store a firearm in the individual's motor vehicle at no additional cost to the individual; or
(ii) a secured and monitored storage location where the individual may securely store firearm before proceeding with the vehicle into the secured parking area; or (b) the person complies with Subsection 34-45-107 (5).

34-45-104. Protection from Liability. A person that owns or controls a parking area that is subject to this chapter and that complies with the requirements of Section 34-45-103 is not liable in any civil action for any occurrence resulting from, connected with, or incidental to the use of a firearm, by any person, unless the use of the firearm involves a criminal act by the person who owns or controls the parking area.

34-45-105. Cause of Action for Noncompliance -- Remedies.
(1) An individual who is injured, physically or otherwise, as a result of any policy or rule prohibited by Section 34-45-103 , may bring a civil action in a court of competent jurisdiction against any person that violates the provisions of Section 34-45-103 .
(2) Any individual who asserts a claim under this section is entitled to request:
(a) declaratory relief;
(b) temporary or permanent injunctive relief to prevent the threatened or continued violation;
(c) recovery for actual damages sustained; and
(d) punitive damages, if:
(i) serious bodily injury or death occurs as a result of the violation of Section 34-45-103 ; or
(ii) the person who violates Section 34-45-103 has previously been notified by the attorney general that a policy or rule violates Section 34-45-103 .
(3) The prevailing party in an action brought under this chapter may recover its court costs and reasonable attorney fees incurred.
(4) Nothing in this chapter shall be construed or held to affect any rights or claims made in relation to Title 34A, Chapter 2, Workers' Compensation Act.

[sleepy03]

So my work has a policy in their handbook stating that employees are not allowed to have firearms in the vehicles on company property, after reading this thread I figured I would contact the AG's office and allow them to contact this employer and advise them about the current law and the requirement to provide "secure parking" if they saw fit to continue to ban firearms.

my email to the AG's office

To whom it may concern

I am writing to inform you of (company name) no firearm policy, it states that firearms may not be kept in personal vehicles and are subject to random searches at the companies will. I was hoping your office could contact them and inform them of the requirement to provide secure parking if they want to continue to enforce the no firearms in their parking lot policy.

Their reply

Dear Mr. -------------:

Thank you for contacting the Utah Attorney General's Office. The Attorney General's Office is counsel to the Utah state agencies therefore, this office does not have jurisdiction over this matter.

Sincerely;
Pam Stevens
Constituent Services

So where do I go from here, working in Utah I'm in constant fear of rocking the boat and losing my job so direct confrontation of employer isn't an option.

[gravedancer]

state labor board maybe ? Or maybe reply to the AG's office and let them know that according to utah code 34-45-105, the AGs office is supposed to notify/warn employers that their policy is in violation of Utah law.

34-45-105. Cause of Action for Noncompliance -- Remedies.
(1) An individual who is injured, physically or otherwise, as a result of any policy or rule prohibited by Section 34-45-103 , may bring a civil action in a court of competent jurisdiction against any person that violates the provisions of Section 34-45-103 .
(2) Any individual who asserts a claim under this section is entitled to request:
(a) declaratory relief;
(b) temporary or permanent injunctive relief to prevent the threatened or continued violation;
(c) recovery for actual damages sustained; and
(d) punitive damages, if:
(i) serious bodily injury or death occurs as a result of the violation of Section 34-45-103 ; or
(ii) the person who violates Section 34-45-103 has previously been notified by the attorney general that a policy or rule violates Section 34-45-103 .
(3) The prevailing party in an action brought under this chapter may recover its court costs and reasonable attorney fees incurred.
(4) Nothing in this chapter shall be construed or held to affect any rights or claims made in relation to Title 34A, Chapter 2, Workers' Compensation Act.

[jaredbelch]

I would respond to the AG's office citing the section that gravedancer mentioned, and this one and let them know that they indeed can and should consider notifying the offending company.

34-45-106. Enforcement by attorney general.
(1) The attorney general may bring an action to enforce this chapter and may request any relief that is provided for under Section 34-45-105, including a request for damages on behalf of any individual suffering loss because of a violation of this chapter.

[sleepy03]

It's unfortunate that I would have to quote state code to the AG's office, I replied to the email as you guys have suggested and will update if I hear anything back or if there is a policy change at work.

[gravedancer]

It's unfortunate that I would have to quote state code to the AG's office, I replied to the email as you guys have suggested and will update if I hear anything back or if there is a policy change at work.

The person who answered your original email may not know about the law change, or if he/she does, they may be hoping you dont, and trying to take the easy way out and not get involved.

[divegeek]

B) If you insist on having a confrontation about it (unwise imo unless you dont really care about the job that much), then print out the relevant law (Ill include it below), and then with a voice recorder running in your pocket or otherwise out of sight, go in and talk to your boss again. Let him know that you are willing to comply with company policy and not carry your gun in the company building, but that you have discovered that utah law prohibits employers from preventing employees from storing their weapons in their vehicle, unless they provide secure alternate storage for you to use. Ask him if he intends to provide the secure alternate storage or seperate free parking as dictated by utah law, and if he says no, then inform him you will continue to lock your weapon up in a safe in your truck when you are on company property. You may very well get fired at this point, but at least if you do its on record that he fired you because of this policy, which opens the door for a relatively easy lawsuit later.

If you go this route, notify the AG's office first, and give them time to notify the company.

The law says that if the company has been notified and still fails to comply with the law then you get triple damages. If you've created the paper trail with the AG's office first, and get a recording of your boss still refusing to comply with the law, it'll be a very easy lawsuit and you'll come out with a nice chunk of change... which will be good because you'll be without a job. And remember that you'll lose your job first and the award from the lawsuit won't come until a year or two later. So I'd suggest having other work lined up before you do this.

Oh, one other point: Concealed is Concealed. If you want to carry at work, just conceal deeply and well. This may entail getting a smaller, more concealable, gun, a different sort of holster, etc., but it can be done. Just keep in mind that if they ever catch you, they'll fire you. That's all they can do, because it's not a crime for you to ignore their policy. But they absolutely can fire you. You have to weigh that risk and make your decision. Personally, I like my job too much to risk it, but if I liked it even a little less...

[rpyne]

It's unfortunate that I would have to quote state code to the AG's office, I replied to the email as you guys have suggested and will update if I hear anything back or if there is a policy change at work.

It has been two weeks, any response from the AG's office? There is a good chance I'll see Deputy AG John Swallow on Saturday. I'll be happy to ask him about it.

[sleepy03]

No actually, after they're first response stating that it's not their responsibility to notify employer's of the law I haven't heard anything back from the AG's office. If you need I can pm you the employer name and what the policy says

[gravedancer]

It's unfortunate that I would have to quote state code to the AG's office, I replied to the email as you guys have suggested and will update if I hear anything back or if there is a policy change at work.

It has been two weeks, any response from the AG's office? There is a good chance I'll see Deputy AG John Swallow on Saturday. I'll be happy to ask him about it.

Probably should ask him why his staff is telling people its not their responsibility to notify employers of illegal policies, since state code would seem to indicate that it is.