hmmmm....concealed? accidental reveal?

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Re: hmmmm....concealed? accidental reveal?

Postby UtahCFP » Fri 01 Feb 2013 2:53 pm

gravedancer wrote:
UtahCFP wrote:So much for that pocket holster, and forward cant holster, and purse holster, and small of the back holster, and inside the waistband holster, and...

A gun can't be fired if properly seated in a well-designed holster.



And you are prepared to say for certain that the shoulder holster mentioned in the OP was well designed, and the gun was properly seated ? Rather hard to do either without ever actually seeing either of them. Personally, I would have moved to another seat, so the guys muzzle could point at someone else rather than me, before I just blindly trusted that he had a decent holster that wouldnt cause a ND.


Just answering for what I would likely do -- unless it looked like he just sewed the holster together out of soft fabric himself that day or the holster otherwise looked hinky, I probably wouldn't give it a second thought and enjoy the show. The only story I can remember of a holster causing an ND was from the idiot designed TSA holster that has a padlock that is supposed to lock IN THE TRIGGER GUARD behind the trigger. A pilot put his pistol in the holster, attached the lock, and then seated the pistol a bit more. Put a hole in the cockpit.

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Re: hmmmm....concealed? accidental reveal?

Postby gskip33 » Fri 01 Feb 2013 9:34 pm

UtahCFP wrote:
gravedancer wrote:
UtahCFP wrote:So much for that pocket holster, and forward cant holster, and purse holster, and small of the back holster, and inside the waistband holster, and...

A gun can't be fired if properly seated in a well-designed holster.



And you are prepared to say for certain that the shoulder holster mentioned in the OP was well designed, and the gun was properly seated ? Rather hard to do either without ever actually seeing either of them. Personally, I would have moved to another seat, so the guys muzzle could point at someone else rather than me, before I just blindly trusted that he had a decent holster that wouldnt cause a ND.


Just answering for what I would likely do -- unless it looked like he just sewed the holster together out of oft fabric himself that day or the holster otherwise looked hinky, I probably wouldn't give it a second thought and enjoy the show. The only story I can remember of a holster causing an ND was from the idiot designed TSA holster that has a padlock that is supposed to lock IN THE TRIGGER GUARD behind the trigger. A pilot put his pistol in the holster, attached the lock, and then seated the pistol a bit more. Put a hole in the cockpit.

Image

Wow. That's insanely stupid.
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Re: hmmmm....concealed? accidental reveal?

Postby Nicksp » Sat 02 Feb 2013 3:07 pm

DiscoLives4ever wrote:Although it may be poor etiquette, nobody threatened (or rather, "conveyed their intention") to infringe on another's rights. The fallacy of "my right to feel safe" is one of the arguments that drives me most crazy. Of course you have a right to feel however you want, but that right ends where another's rights begin. You should not be able to alter another person's actions with force of law just because you think they might choose to infringe on your own rights. There has to be an actual infringement or threat of such.


What you say?! You don't think the bliss of ignorance is worthy of being enforced at gun point. Don't you know that the best way to deal with the dangers in the world is to just wear a blindfold so you can 'feel' safe?
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Re: hmmmm....concealed? accidental reveal?

Postby RockyMTNpilot » Sat 09 Feb 2013 8:59 pm

Keep it concealed and you wont have problems like this. I'm really getting sick of people complaining about how dangerous life is. It has never been safer. Ever. There are trucks passing you on the highway going 70MPH with FEET of you! all the time! and someone will complain about this. Maybe I'm getting old or something but dangerous things have always been around. People feel way too secure in this country.
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Re: hmmmm....concealed? accidental reveal?

Postby dewittdj » Sat 09 Feb 2013 9:17 pm

I would have tapped the gentleman on the shoulder and have asked him if he wouldn't mind canting the firearm down ("change the angle of the dangle") by loosening the holster straps for the length of the show. If not, then I would have asked for another seat, explaining my discomfort to the manager.

Hardware fails all of the time. This includes trigger guards, safeties, springs, catches, releases, anything mechanical or material.

CarKnocker has a point. Holstered guns get pointed a number of times without anyone realizing it. The difference here is that the person seated behind the carrier did notice. He should have addressed the gentleman directly vice slamming him in print.
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Re: hmmmm....concealed? accidental reveal?

Postby UtahCFP » Sun 10 Feb 2013 6:44 am

dewittdj wrote:I would have tapped the gentleman on the shoulder and have asked him if he wouldn't mind canting the firearm down ("change the angle of the dangle") by loosening the holster straps for the length of the show. If not, then I would have asked for another seat, explaining my discomfort to the manager.

Hardware fails all of the time. This includes trigger guards, safeties, springs, catches, releases, anything mechanical or material.

CarKnocker has a point. Holstered guns get pointed a number of times without anyone realizing it. The difference here is that the person seated behind the carrier did notice. He should have addressed the gentleman directly vice slamming him in print.
:disgusted:


I'd place the odds of an ND to be much higher with the guy playing with the holster cant over just having the gun go off from a series of mechanical failures in the holster. I can't even come up with the series of failures that would be required.

I guess a 1911 could have the thumb safety pop off and the grip safety be jammed in place as the trigger mechanism failed in a holster without a strap in front of the hammer.

Seems like the odds of having a chunk of the ceiling give way and fall on me would be in the same statistical ballpark.
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Re: hmmmm....concealed? accidental reveal?

Postby Kishkumen » Wed 06 Mar 2013 10:47 am

So I've been away from the UCC forum for several years, due to massive busy times drawing me away from my daily reads and then just falling out of the habit. Recently, my wife told me that one of her co-workers was a mod here, and I remembered how much I've enjoyed reading so many of the posts on this forum and figured I'd come back and see what it was I've been missing. Imagine my surprise when I look back at an older article and find out it's about me... Yes, I believe I am the shoulder holstered villain in this tale. Honestly, I spent all last night freaking out about how I'm now being discussed far and wide, and debating on if I should identify myself at all. I couldn't make it through the first couple pages of comments on the Tribune's site... My wife ended up reading them all, and helping me calm down by reminding me that general internet posters are idiots... especially after some comment comparing carrying a gun and abortion! So then I thought about my history reading this forum, and how it is generally a safe place of discussion and decided to identify myself, and continue the discussion with information from both sides.

The story from my side:

I was running late to the show, and so while getting to my seat I took my overcoat off more quickly than I normally do in an attempt to not be in peoples way more than I needed to. Unfortunately, this also removed my suit coat, which I always keep on to conceal my firearm. I didn't realize my suit was half off till I sat down, and as quickly as possible put it back on. I was worried that someone saw and would be upset. Seems my worry was founded. I feel horrible that I caused someone to be uncomfortable at the show, and intend on contacting him and sending a personal apology as well.

There have been several comments about pointed a loaded gun at people, so I must say the gun was not loaded. Full magazine, nothing chambered. I actually made the choice to not have a round chambered for this very reason, I was not comfortable sitting in a crowd with a fully loaded gun pointing at the people behind me, I decided that it would be better to take the extra second to chamber a round if needed than have that risk of a loaded gun. That being said, the holster was a Serpa full kydex holster, which I've tested quite a bit to make sure is safe, and always make sure the firearm is properly seated. The cant on it cannot be adjusted to point directly down, but I do try to make sure it's pointing as far down as possible. I have been looking into a new shoulder holster, and will keep the other options in mind as well.

Since I know it will be asked, the gun was a Sig P226 Equinox, in .40. I'm impressed that Mr. Wagnon was correct with the caliber! I will be willing to answer any questions you may have at this point as well. I appreciate the positive comments I've seen on this thread. And for those who feel I was in the wrong, I understand your view point, but do feel there was no real risk in my actions, other than people being upset and uncomfortable because I took off my jacket. I have been extra careful since to make sure the suit jacket stays on, and will make sure to learn as much as possible from this incident. Thanks everyone!
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Re: hmmmm....concealed? accidental reveal?

Postby toothguy » Wed 06 Mar 2013 11:32 am

Wow. That took some guts. I suppose owning it and letting people know that you had actually put some thought into the safety factor helps me out. Nice to meet you.
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Re: hmmmm....concealed? accidental reveal?

Postby UtahJarhead » Wed 06 Mar 2013 12:08 pm

Kishkumen wrote:So I've been away from the UCC forum for several years, due to massive busy times drawing me away from my daily reads and then just falling out of the habit.

<snip!>



Welcome back to UCC, then! My only issue with your apology (more the details surrounding it) is "Treat every gun as if it's loaded." That's all! Great job owning up to it.

It's not the idea of if you ensured that it was unloaded, but how do those staring down the barrel know that it's unloaded? They don't. It needs to be treated like it's loaded. I hope you chill with us some more. :)
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Re: hmmmm....concealed? accidental reveal?

Postby quychang » Wed 06 Mar 2013 4:46 pm

Thanks for manning up, and explaining. Took more guts than I probably have, so hats off to you. I agree that ensuring it was unloaded did a world of good for your personal peace of mind, and unfortunately nothing for those that saw it and were made uncomfortable. Yes muzzle control is extremely important, but if you live in a world where shoulder holsters make the most sense, I can see choosing one that you feel is safe due to your own testing, might trump downward cant. Luckily I'll never have that issue :lol3: as my suit wearing is limited to funerals, and much to my wife's disgust, I just carry IWB, unless of course it's at an LDS facility. In that case, even more to her disgust, I usually choose not to attend. It hasn't been a big issue though, nor do I see it really becoming one.

Glad to have you back with us! Share in the madness and horseplay that is UCC :lol3: . Obviously you have a reasonably thick skin, so you should feel right at home jumping in on our more heated discussions.

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Re: hmmmm....concealed? accidental reveal?

Postby rpyne » Wed 06 Mar 2013 6:22 pm

Kishkumen wrote:I decided that it would be better to take the extra second to chamber a round if needed than have that risk of a loaded gun.


Look up the Tueller Drill, it might change your mind.

Kishkumen wrote:The cant on it cannot be adjusted to point directly down, but I do try to make sure it's pointing as far down as possible.


Hmmm..... I own several Serpa holsters and all of them adjust for straight down.
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Re: hmmmm....concealed? accidental reveal?

Postby jfwright1955 » Wed 06 Mar 2013 7:04 pm

Kishkumen wrote: ... So then I thought about my history reading this forum, and how it is generally a safe place of discussion and decided to identify myself, and continue the discussion with information from both sides ... .


Bravo, Kishkumen. As others have already mentioned, that took a lot of guts to 'fess up. I'd probably still be sulking in the corner and licking my wounds. As you pointed out, this is a relatively safe haven and one of the reasons why I was drawn to the forum in the first place and why I rarely miss an opportunity to log in a couple of times a day to see what the latest "topics of discussion" are.
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Re: hmmmm....concealed? accidental reveal?

Postby Kishkumen » Thu 07 Mar 2013 8:48 am

Thanks for the positive comments everyone. I'm glad the forum is still a safe place for discussions

rpyne wrote:Hmmm..... I own several Serpa holsters and all of them adjust for straight down.


I admit I might be missing something, but this is the shoulder harness I'm using http://www.blackhawk.com/product/CQC-SERPA-Shoulder-Harness,94,82.htm and I can't see any way to change the angle enough. I got that rig because I have a few different Serpa holsters, so I can change out which one I'm using for my shoulder carry depending on which firearm I'm wanting on me that day. I've found myself sticking with my 226 almost always though, which is why I'm currently considering other options, as I believe this rig is a bit bulky and has been making my suit coat pucker a bit at the front. I'll investigate the Tueller Drill as well, thanks for the suggestion!
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Re: hmmmm....concealed? accidental reveal?

Postby manithree » Thu 07 Mar 2013 8:49 am

As far as Mr. Wagnon's "right to feel safe" I just have to say, there is no such thing. If there was an inalienable right to force other people to only do things that you feel safe around, none of us would be able carry guns. Or drive. Every time Mr. Wagnon sets foot off his property, he's taking his chances just like everybody else. He needs to put on his big boy pants and get over it.

Accidentally showing when you're concealed is certainly not illegal in Utah (thank goodness), and IMO, not unethical or immoral. There are those who believe we should bolster the false illusion of safety among the liberal hand-wringers by essentially admitting that we're ashamed of carrying. In case you haven't guessed, I disagree.

To sum up Mr. Wagnon's contribution to the literary canon: "Shoulder holsters scare me." Kishkumen, I applaud your commitment to safety and your willingnes to examine your carry procedures. But you're never going to make everybody happy. I suspect that even if you had been using an OWB holster with the muzzle pointed at the floor, there are plenty of Lib Trib readers who could have been sitting behind you and still had a fit of righteous indignation. IOW, carry on.
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Re: hmmmm....concealed? accidental reveal?

Postby UtahJarhead » Thu 07 Mar 2013 9:04 am

Kishkumen, it looks like your shoulder holster has 2 points of contact where the gun touches the harness. In the second picture in the link you provided, there is a round hole in the top left and 2 longer holes in 2 different positions. Looks like you can disconnect the screw that's in one of the long holes and move it to the other one and it should change the direction that it's mounted.
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