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North Fork campground, Weber County

3K views 7 replies 5 participants last post by  DaKnife 
#1 ·
Sent to Jennifer Graham <jgraham@co.weber.ut.us> today, 10pm, Saturday, September 7, 2013. Contact information obtained from: http://www.co.weber.ut.us/parks/contact.php
Ms. Graham,
I apologize for using the 'Ms.' honorific since there's only a slim chance that it's your chosen one.

I am emailing you to hopefully get some signs corrected that I found over the weekend. While visiting the North Fork campground (East Bowery), I saw a sign, attached, that has language that concerns me.

Rule #3 on the sign says "Absolutely no fireworks, guns, or projectiles."

This rule is contrary to state law. Specifically, the UC 76-10-500 says:

(1) The individual right to keep and bear arms being a constitutionally protected right, the Legislature finds the need to provide uniform laws throughout the state. Except as specifically provided by state law, a citizen of the United States or a lawfully admitted alien shall not be:
(a) prohibited from owning, possessing, purchasing, selling, transferring, transporting, or keeping any firearm at his place of residence, property, business, or in any vehicle lawfully in his possession or lawfully under his control; or
(b) required to have a permit or license to purchase, own, possess, transport, or keep a firearm.
(2) This part is uniformly applicable throughout this state and in all its political subdivisions and municipalities. All authority to regulate firearms shall be reserved to the state except where the Legislature specifically delegates responsibility to local authorities or state entities. Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact or enforce any ordinance, regulation, or rule pertaining to firearms.
As the Weber County Parks and Recreation department is a county agency, the authority to enact or enforce laws pertaining to the possession of firearms lies outside of the authority of your office.

The possession of firearms is regulated in only a few manners by the state. A person may not conceal a firearm without a Concealed Firearm Permit (UC 76-10-504). A person may not carry a statutorily loaded firearm on a public street without a Concealed Firearm Permit (UC 76-10-505). A person may not carry a firearm into a Utah school unless they have been issued a Concealed Firearm Permit from Utah (UC 76-10-505.5). The legislature has not addressed the unconcealed carrying (or open carrying) of firearms and as such, it is a permitted act in all but a few secure areas (Courts, Law Enforcement, Jails, Mental Health Institutions) provided that the firearm is statutorily unloaded as defined in UC 76-10-502.

The sign, being an attempt to enact one of these rules, is contrary to state law and therefore illegal. I would like to request that the signs be altered to remove the language that indicates all guns are forbidden.

Thank you in advance for your time.

[UtahJarhead]
Ogden resident

Email: <redacted here>
Cell: <redacted here>
The sign in question:
 
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#3 ·
I thought about that. I just don't care. The law is very explicit and so is their sign. If we have to follow the law, doggone it so do they.
 
#4 ·
UtahJarhead said:
I thought about that. I just don't care. The law is very explicit and so is their sign. If we have to follow the law, doggone it so do they.
+1.

And as several of us have discovered, in many cases the signs are in place due to ignorance. In some cases, they have been in place, or are the same language used, since before State preemption made the policies null and void (I tend to avoid the term "illegal" since there is really no penalty attached for having such a policy, the policy just isn't enforceable. Lacking a penalty, I don't think it is "illegal" in any practical sense of the word.).

In any event, in most cases, simply making the offending agency/municipality aware of their mistake is generally enough to get the signs fixed, tough it usually takes some time for them to work up the stickers that are often used to cover/correct the offending language, after the time needed for the city attorney to verify that your interpretation is correct. Follow up if needed in a few weeks, and then be willing to be patient in how long it takes to get the signs corrected, assuming the county is working to make the corrections and is willing to put out a memo to local police to avoid improper citations until the signs are corrected.

Getting these kinds of signs corrected isn't essential to avoiding legal problems, but it does go a long way to helping to make sure that cultural norms and mores regarding Utah's RKBA are not being undermined by official documentation.

Thanks for the good work.

Charles
 
#6 ·
Graham, Jennifer Ann.
3:19 PM (44 minutes ago)

to me
Mr. UtahJarhead,

Sorry to take so long to reply. I was busy finishing up the budget process last week.

Thanks for your e-mail. We are aware that the signs in the Park needs some updates. As part of the Planning Process that we are currently engaged in, we have signage and rules/ordinances as two of the topics to cover. I am in the process of refining the rule and will get the signs updated soon.

Thanks again for your time,

Jennifer Graham
Director
801-399-8225
Sounds like it's already being fixed. I suppose time will tell.
 
#8 ·
Just wondering if that sign as currently written covers projectile spitting by camp "hosts" as they are bawling you out for some imagined infraction? Or what if my kid picks up a rock and tosses it off to the side of the trail? Is that rock once tossed not a projectile?

Good news on the response.
 
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